I find it both admirable and quaint to call for continued discussions on the sexuality issue. Having said that, discussions don't seem all that worthwhile, as all that can be said, has been said. The sexuality discussion has never been about truth. Nor are they about a meeting of minds. And there seems little way to find agreement in diametrically opposed views.

Moreover, I do not believe passing the task force recommendations will cause a "train wreck". Passage will not likely generate much press comment as this is old ground passed over a number of times. It is difficult to foresee a repeat of the Anglican struggles as its not the Lutheran way to make such a fuss. Most ELCA parishioners already know that recognition of gay union is the de facto policy of the ELCA. Its only a question of when gay union will be officially recognized.

With or without passage, I expect a continuation of the decline in ELCA membership. And even if the decline is quicker because of passage, it won't matter much. The Church will not end with the ELCA's demise, just as it did not begin with the ELCA's formation. Its difficult to see how the world would be different with or without the ELCA in it, which is perhaps the supreme judgment against the ELCA.

I personally pray for the individuals to follow Christ and exhibit Christian charity in the upcoming events.

I share Gary Schnitkey's pessimism about the ELCA and gay ordination--it is a de facto reality. However, is there any value at all in avoiding having it become de jure? I think there must be.

Gary, you are right: the church will always exist apart from the actions of this poor ELCA of ours. There is joyously something bigger to the church than this dying denomination. The church endures nevertheless, despite herself, because it is Church, not church.

Speaking of de facto, many of us in the clergy roster see the ELCA as one big Human Resources department: extremely adept at pension and medical benefits management, skillful at mobility, wonderfully collegial at our respective synod offices. However, when the ELCA tries to speak in any theological way, it is guaranteed to irritate, annoy, hassle, vex. And anyway, many of us find our teaching authority elsewhere, de facto, within and without the Lutheran tradition. We have long ago abandoned official teaching resources from the ELCA. Be it CCM or this latest innovation, we have chalked it up as just another piece in a sustained agenda from Churchwide.

Our synod just passed its memorials to Churchwide Assembly, approving the sexuality statement and asking it to proceed on the way to local option gay ordination. It was approved by a wide margin.

I know there's a preponderance now against the tradition teaching on homosexuality. I know that the local option business theoretically safeguards my rights to teach according to the lights of catholic Christian tradition. But we feel isolated.

Continuing on a theme, de jure we are safe, de facto I don't know. Does an exposed nail now get hammered?

One more thing: in my ordination I vowed to uphold the authority of scripture and the Lutheran confessions. I don't believe that I swore allegiance to any transmogrified denomination. I am hoping it much like presidents and soldiers, who in their oaths swear to defend the constitution, not parties, not even administrations.

If I am right, is there a way forward here?

And how long may we remain the loyal opposition without looking like ridiculous relics from a Lutheranism abandoned long ago?



Prognostications are usually howlers several decades down the line, but I think that a rump ELCA

It seems to me that there have already been many years of "free conference" on the sexuality issues. Apparently, the process of "journeying together faithfully" has resulted in those who believe that there are clear Biblical prohibitions to non-heterosexual unions and to homosexual conduct have being worn down to the point of simply throwing in the towel. I am afraid that the emphasis of these years of talk has been on "journeying together" as opposed to being "faithful"- faithful, that is, to the Scripture. How can one seriously dispute the Judeo-Christian concept of marriage being between one man and one woman? It was ordained by God "in the beginning". Certainly, the church will always welcome all sinners to share in God's grace and forgiveness, whether they have succumbed to the sexual sins of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, or other sins of the flesh. But to teach that such love for the sinner also requires us to accept and approve of continuing in those sinful lifestyles is plain wrong. God forgive us for we know not what we do!

leave them. I left the ELCA this year for a large mega church that holds marriage can only be between a man and a woman.... the same as Martin Luther said.

Were Luther alive today... he would be ready to kill some in his church for how they have descrated it.

I lost my Lutheran faith the day my beloved ALC was stolen away from me in a gay conspiracy by the ELCA.

Mark Hanson did not want me to vote with my hands so I voted with my feet.

The ELCA is in trouble... I would suggest all GOOD Lutherans leave the church in the interest of truly following the Bible.