The View from the "Other Side"
An ELCA pastor sent this to us as an example of the kind of hermeneutical and exegetical reasoning behind support for the marriage and ordination of homosexual persons. We present it here in the interest of promoting a fair and open dialogue, allowing people to speak for themselves. We especially ask commenters here to take the arguments presented at their strongest and best, since it remains our conviction that only through honest debate, not polemic and pot-shots, that we have any hope of resolving this divisive issue...
An ELCA pastor sent this to us as an example of the kind of hermeneutical and exegetical reasoning behind support for the marriage and ordination of homosexual persons. We present it here in the interest of promoting a fair and open dialogue, allowing people to speak for themselves. We especially ask commenters here to take the arguments presented at their strongest and best, since it remains our conviction that only through honest debate, not polemic and pot-shots, that we have any hope of resolving this divisive issue. --The Editors
At the 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly I stood in line to speak during the debate on the controversial ministry recommendations related to sexuality. Those in favor of the proposed changes in policy had frequently cited portions of scripture in pleading their case, but the other side had unyieldingly held that the Bible’s word on this topic, along with nearly two millennia of Christian teaching, was absolutely clear and unmistakable. Advocates for change had been described as standing against the Word on the basis of selfish desire or self-centered experience, and I had wanted to provide some counterword that would explain how it could be that some among us understood, or believed, themselves actually to be faithful to the scriptures rather than in defiance of them when they argued for the possibility of same-gender relationships within the pale of Christian ethics. As one of those who so believed, I wanted to try to make that position understood and respected even if unshared and rejected.
As I stood and waited my turn at the microphone, however, it became clearer and clearer to me that my allotted two minutes would not suffice for all the words I had to speak, both scribbled on the pieces of paper I held in my hands and weighing on my heart.
Moreover, not only wasn’t there enough time but it seemed to me that this was not the time: emotions were too high, the decision too close, and the time for thoughtful and patient conversation over complexities of interpretation had passed. One more argument would have seemed just that—more argument. When at last my turn came to speak I abandoned my notes and instead spoke simply of the feelings and thoughts that I have just described, closing with the hope that once the dust settled from this fight the conversations that should have happened earlier might again become possible and we would be able to talk across the divide.
To that end, and in response to several requests from people curious about what I had originally intended to say, I have typed up this now very much expanded version of my scribblings. They are now less a speech than a short lecture, and I am embarrassed by the length to which they have grown, but still I have written in the hope that these words will further the cause of understanding. And, oh, how often we human beings do simply yearn to be understood!
In this assembly, in this church, and in many of our partner churches, there are many who find it a conclusive argument, or simply an insurmountable obstacle to change, that there is no endorsement of same-gender intimacy to be found anywhere in scripture. We who argue the other side of this issue neither deny that fact nor find it surprising. Neither do we pretend that there are not several biblical passages that have classically been understood to condemn such relations as abominable and sinful and are considered to do so by the majority of Christian churches around the world. And yet we too love the Bible—the whole Bible and not just parts of it—and attend to its authority. How can this be? How can we indeed even claim, as we do, that the Bible itself drives and draws us to the stand that we are taking here?
To answer, I bid you begin by thinking about a central and recurrent pattern that we find in the Scriptures: again and again some new, unforeseen reality arises to challenge God’s people—Israel, the Church, and humankind as a whole—to new faithfulness. What had seemed settled and sure gave way and God gave new meaning to ancient promises. Such was a pattern and paradigm for biblical Israel, and so it was also for the New Testament Church pushed by its Lord to the inclusion of gentiles and to the breaching of long-sanctified dividing walls.
And so it has also been, again and again, for the Church in our nearly two thousand years of living in attempted faithfulness to the Word: challenges have come along to confront our communal assumptions, backed up by Biblical texts, about the naturalness of slavery, the divine right of kings, the centrality of the earth relative to the sun, the proper and submissive role of women, and many other issues. The examples abound, in matters both great and trivial. “New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good uncouth” was how it was put in a hymn some of us recall from our childhoods (#547 in the Lutheran Service Book and Hymnal). But not only did old assumptions about what was right give way: what had once seemed clearly scandalous in dress or behavior or thought sometimes turned out to seem quite compatible with or even faithful to the will of God. This is not to say that every new notion is acceptable, for some indeed are evil and destructive, but it is to remember both that we have been confronted by difficult and divisive challenges to ancient assumptions before, and that, when we have, we have sometimes discovered in Scripture’s inspired words inspiring and fresh meaning.
Within my own lifetime, the Church has again been confronted with what has seemed a novum, an unanticipated new thing, confronting us with the challenge of rereading and rethinking for the sake of faithfulness. People, brothers and sisters in Christ, began to stand up and say, often at considerable risk and with painful consequence, words to this effect: I am as those in Romans 1, a person who has desire for those of my own sex. Yet I do not see myself in those words of Paul. I have not “exchanged the natural for the unnatural;” this is my nature. I do not worship creatures and idols (except as you can say all of us do), but I love and seek to serve my creator and living God. And like you I yearn for companionship and love, not just kicks and promiscuous pleasure. I am like you.
For me and for so many others, this came as a novum. I had never imagined it or thought of it when I was a child and a youth, though of course in time I recognized how the underlying realities had been there all along, pressed down and hidden in so many closeted or shamed lives in the world around me. But now, confronted with these words and this discovery, I recognized anew what the Bible itself had taught me about the potential of such challenge and about my obligation to attend to the surprising stranger. Shaped by Scripture’s story and by Christian tradition’s encouragement, I went back to look again at what I had assumed I already understood. I studied Paul’s words in Romans 1, asking the Lutheran catechetical Was ist das?—What does this mean? What is at stake here? What is this really about?—and I was struck how differently Paul’s Greek word physike meant from what we today hear when we translate it as “natural,” and I examined more fully the theory and rhetoric of the Pharisaic Jewish views of gentiles that Paul is using to further his underlying argument in this section, and I wondered as well about the distinction between the arguments that form the rhetoric for a vital point and that point itself.
Among examples of such apostolic argument, i.e. of a rhetoric whose factuality we might question even as we owe allegiance to the underlying point it serves, is the passing assertion in Titus 1:12-16 that all Cretans are liars, beasts, and lazy gluttons. A possibly more pertinent one is the assertion in I Cor. 11:13-16 that long hair is shameful on a man but a glory to a woman. There is an intriguing possibility that Paul’s argument there is grounded in a Greek theory of reproductive physiology that had the seed of life generated in the male brain and then drawn down out and up into the female womb where it would develop. Hairs were believed to exert an attractive force on the seed and were thus thought part of the reproductive system. I do not know for sure whether Paul subscribed to that theory —I do not argue that he did and am necessarily agnostic on that question—but I appreciate the humbling reminder that we do not automatically understand the world of our fathers and mothers in the faith. The past, as has been said, is another country. That cautionary truth does not cancel the inspiration and truth-bearing of Scripture for us; it does, however, bid us be less cocksure in our own assumptions.
Moreover, now knowing homosexual men and women whose lives seemed neither adequately described nor convincingly explained by those oft-cited verses in Romans 1, did I not at the very least have to consider the possibility that Paul’s words there, written as part of a larger argument and contention for an urgent truth, were making a point that (a) did not necessarily apply to every single person of homosexual orientation or in a homosexual relationship, and (b) should not be taken as a definitive and comprehensive description of the genesis and dynamics of all homosexual love?
In thinking about these things, I was neither devaluing the Scriptures nor reading them with a “cafeteria-style” selectivity. I was reading faithfully, seeking what it was that I was now meant to understand from Paul’s words, from his classic Pharisaic linkage of gentile idolatry with sexual excess and incontinence, and even his use, at the end of verse 27, of a flourish of physical revulsion. Understanding this passage not as prescriptive for our present understanding of the lives of all gay and lesbian persons—a function for which it seems ill-suited—but instead as Paul’s passionate argumentation for the principle of a universal responsibility and relationship to the living God, a principle and a passion to which we too are bound, seems to me a much more faithful (and faithfully Lutheran) attention to the meaning—the “Was ist das?”—of the text.
It was of course not only to Romans 1 but also to several other passages of Scripture that I was driven back by the novum of a sexuality I had not understood. I had to go back and reread the story of those divine strangers who came to Abraham at Mamre and then to Lot in Sodom, that cruel and unjust city, as Ezekiel 16:49 describes it. Suddenly it seemed so striking that God had tested the city by coming to it in the form of alien and vulnerable outsiders. These angels, as they come to be described, were of course strangers, queer beings. I hope it’s obvious that I use that provocative adjective not to argue anything about the sexuality of the visitors but rather in reference to the old-fashioned meaning of the word, pointing out the social “otherness” of these visitors. (The Epistle of Jude uses the mysterious and interesting term “strange flesh” [sarkx hetera] when describing the Sodom story.) And the classic story of judgment then unfolds: they sought welcome and instead the mob gathered before the gate of Lot’s house to abuse and rape them. This was clearly not the story of people falling in love with members of their own sex. Rather, here was a story much akin to what I had come to learn about, the violence and contempt so often directed against the vulnerable and alien. It was the gay-basher, not his victim, who committed the biblical sin of Sodom. So it seemed to me, and so it seems still as I consider the many other instances of abuse directed at the vulnerably different in human communities.
Likewise did I now look more closely at the few other Old Testament passages that had seemed to back up our centuries-old teaching on homosexuality, only to find again that what these verses concerned or entailed was not necessarily what we had assumed. Issues of power, gender, procreation, identity, community, ritual, idolatry all seemed either present or suggested, important issues that indeed needed thought and care, for ancient Israel and for us, but the unequivocal condemnation of all same-sex intimacy once seen in those few verses no longer seemed anywhere near evident. Similarly, the condemnations of pederasty and homosexual exploitation found in the New Testament now appeared as straightforward moral teaching with which also most gay people would agree and not as necessary condemnations of homosexuality itself. Moreover, I found myself more and more dissatisfied with that modern word “homosexuality,” though I use it as a stylistic convenience here: that non-biblical term, and possibly, or arguably, that particular reification, is barely 100 years old and seems to me to oversimplify and distort what it purports to describe. Faithful to my reading of Holy Scripture, therefore, I could not feel compelled, nor compel others, to the condemnation of any and all same-gender sexual relations as inherently sinful. Of course many disagree with me on that, and I have explicitly pledged to respect their bound consciences, even as I pray they will respect mine.
(That I had also become painfully aware of the personal harm and tragedies to which the Church’s condemnation and ostracism had often contributed was obviously a factor in my thinking hard about this—I am one who believes that our ethics should inform and challenge our theology and not just the other way around—but that reality is not a necessary part of the logical argument I am offering at the moment.)
There is, incidentally, a further so-called scriptural argument that has been put forward by some for the condemnation of homosexual relations, namely the paradigm of male-and-female creation described in Genesis 1 and again, albeit somewhat differently, in Genesis 2, the paradigm cited by Jesus when questioned about the legal permissibility of divorce in Mark 10 and Matthew 19. Yet even though I love and apply that paradigm (and those texts) quite often I find it both utterly unconvincing and perversely unrealistic to claim that there is the single and absolute basis for all sexual identity and morality. Indeed in Matthew 19:10-12 Jesus himself acknowledges, without condemnation, that some exist outside the norm he had cited from Genesis 2:24. The exegesis of these passages in Matthew and Mark raise several important and relevant issues tempting to discuss, but the immediate point is that extrapolation from them to a condemnation of sexual minorities seems neither logical nor wise.
Please understand that none of the above denies the reality of sexual sins. It is a slander and an insult to suggest that a rethinking of the intrinsic sinfulness of same-gender relations means an abandonment of either a consciousness of sin or of a moral concern for human behavior. Both sides in this argument are driven by a deep sense of moral urgency (indeed occasionally in each case by an unhelpfully imperious moralism). This point is missed by those who describe the reform position as an obliteration of the Law in favor of some loosey-goosey reading of the Gospel. Abuse, rape, prostitution, exploitation, infidelity, betrayal, promiscuity are all among the many violations of the sacred that demand our response and resistance. Indeed, a part of the desire for a revision of our teaching and policy has been the urgency of confronting such sin in the context of same-gender relationships, calling for responsibility, care, and fidelity rather than ruling all such relationships by definition beyond the pale of morality. The a priori condemnation of gay and lesbian relations in our traditional position has often had the sad effect of encouraging the very irresponsibility that was then used to justify that condemnation through lurid descriptions of a hedonistic subculture.
Confronting that reality may, incidentally, force us also to think about the culpability of our churches for the spread of AIDS in the 1980’s, the guilt upon us for what happened in the shadows of our absolute clarities. But, again, that’s a topic for a later time in the conversation for whose continuation I am here pleading. My point is simply that the ELCA social statement on sexuality that we approved at the assembly needs to be read in its seriousness about the disfiguring power of sin and not caricatured as a denial of such dangerous and tragic reality.
Unfortunately, the mistaken critique of reform as wrong-headedness about Law and Gospel is abetted, and may seem momentarily valid, when advocates for change fall into arguing their position not from an attention to God’s passion for how we should treat one another (i.e., the Law) but only from the Gospel of God’s forgiveness or, worse yet, from the “tolerant” but careless characterization of “homosexuality” as merely one of the many sins by which we all fall short. That approach does indeed misunderstand both our Lutheran confessions and the issue itself. But that is not the approach I am arguing here.
The verb “caricature” used a moment ago reminded me of where I started, with the sense of both insult and sadness at being misunderstood and maligned. I had wanted to explain and defend myself. I had wanted, in the manner of human beings, to be understood, not just for my own pathetic sake but also for the sake of what I understood as true and right. For Christ’s sake, I might say, both in the theological sense and in the impatient colloquially exclamatory sense. And with the recognition of that motivation come at least two tempering thoughts: first a recognition that, in spite of my mind knowing better, my secret heart harbors the vanity that if only people “on the other side” understood me they would also agree with me, an arrogance that can blind me to the ways in which they also have felt caricatured and dismissed in these debates; and then a remembering that seeking to “justify ourselves,” even theologically, does not lead to either our salvation or our ultimate unity but rather away from it. The way to which I am called is to the foot of the cross.
Still, ethically and responsibly, we do have to contend for what we believe is faithful. Those of us who have advocated for both greater room and greater responsibility in this church for its sexual minorities do hope for understanding, but we know we cannot demand to be agreed with, nor even to be completely understood. Our arguments may be rejected and our interpretations challenged. We may indeed be wrong where we think we are right, and as Lutherans we are called to a fairly high doctrine of fallibility. Nonetheless, still we plead with you who dispute with us on this issue: if you hear us and still do disagree, let not our disagreement define us. And even if we cannot fully understand each other, please let us respect each other. And even if you cannot now find a way fully to respect us, I pray you not to close the open hand of fellowship and go away. If you believe you have to, I shall defend your bound conscience also in that regard. But I beseech you to be slow, prayerful, and careful about it in that case, and talk not only with those with whom you agree. This issue matters, but please let it not keep us from perceiving the Body that we share, the Gospel that we proclaim, or the vital work we are called to do together.
John Stendahl is Pastor at the Lutheran Church of the Newtons in Newton Centre, Massachusetts.
"weakest point"
Maybe if I felt myself closer to being taken with or convinced by this thinking I would be able to argue better against it. I do hear the suggestion of a dismissive arrogance in that, and I apologize for it and I do seek to honor the argument. But here's something that occurs to me now: the struggle sometimes involves our differences as to where the burden of proof lies, with our own position or the other's. That is, if I find an argument unpersuasive, must I prove it wrong to the satisfaction of one who was previously persuaded by it? Is the burden of proof on me or on the other? Clearly it does not do to say that neither of us have responsibility to seek to persuade the other, and just as clearly it will not do to say that the other's being unpersuaded invalidates the position argued. But I suspect that each party privileges its own position as the one against which the greater burden of proof would be required. That said, we continue the conversation.
Jesus' words were spoken in response to a narrow question asked with a yet narrower intent, a question about the permissibility of divorce. Our Lord's powerful and challenging answer acknowledges that world of law, that world in which also we (simul peccatores) do grapple with the hardness of human hearts, but then challenges and calls away from that selfish double narrowness to a vision of God's first and good intention for us, not how can we escape the burden of covenant but how and why we should live in it. Not the and loopholes to be explored but the remembrance of the fidelity and mutuality that God intends.
I could write more about that, but perhaps this suffices for you to sense why I think the attempt to build a whole system of sexual law and ethics on Jesus' citation of Genesis in regard to divorce both misunderstands the nature of that citation and ironically puts us back with Jesus' interrogators rather than with those who attend to the challenge of his words to ourselves.
John
Jesus established the paradigm of marriage and the rules for divorce
the divorce passages
It occurs to me now that it was primarily the Marcan passage I had in mind here as to the order of Jesus words, with the Mosaic permission given first and then the reference to the intent at creation and the "let no man put asunder." The explicit words linking divorce to adultery are not spoken to the Pharisees but to the disciples in the house privately. The Matthean version is structured a bit differently, with the Pharisees raising the issue of the Mosaic law after Jesus has spoken of the creational paradigm and given the injunction against sundering. Jesus then speaks the words about divorce (except for unchastity) as adultery as the conclusion of his argument to the Pharisees. The ensuing conversation with the disciples then gets quite interesting with their exclamation “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” and our Lord's response “Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given..."
As I said before, these passages are rich and important and worthy of further reflection. My sense remains, however, that understanding these words only in terms of the legality with which the Pharisees were concerned misses the point and the challenge. More to the point of the current discussion, though, is the dubiousness of the notion that by citing the two passages from Genesis Jesus intended here to give us the hermeneutical key for every single issue concerning human sexuality, law, and ethics. I just don't think that's the point in either Mark or Matthew. And I certainly think it's ironic, as you might also, that many of the folks who interpret these passages of the gospels as condemnations of homosexuality seem to have fewer problems accommodating divorce in the church. (You don't have to explain that to me. I understand it and arguments for it. I'm just saying it seems ironic.)
Yours in Christ,
John
There's nothing dubious about His clarity
There is nothing 'dubious' about his total clarity. Jesus could hardly be more clear in describing what he's talking about. It leaves no wiggle room for other interpretations, he states on whoms authority he makes the proclamation of what is acceptable by God's design and then he rules on divorce. He then states that the only other acceptable condition is to be a eunuch, either self made, man made or God made, but outside of the marriage he described as between a male and female, celibacy is the only other option.
As to those that accept divorce beyond what Jesus describes, I don't call that irony, I call it hypocrisy. But their wrong use doesn't mean its okay for more wrong uses, the paradigm of what Jesus described is the only God approved sexual relationship from God's design and intention, a man and wife in God's joined together matrimony. Everyone else is either a eunuch in celibacy or participating in sexual immorality. You may not be able to accept it, but Jesus said it and he did give us the hermeneutical key for every single issue concerning human sexuality, whether some people like it or not. It is what it is.
I love extensions too
There is so much meaning and insight to be found in the Holy Scriptures. They are not only, in Luther's image, the Manger where the living Word is found, but, among yet other images, the God-given landscape where we walk and explore to understand our own world in different and redeeming perspective. The excitement of deeper meaning discovered marks many passages of the New Testament, the typological enthusiasm that seems to exclaim "Ooh! Ooh! Look at this! See here! Now we understand! Do you get it?" The rock in the wilderness was Christ, the pierced victim was Jesus, the fall of the first Adam set the anti-pattern for Christ as the second Adam, etc., etc. That is part of the "in accordance with the Scriptures" phrase in our creed. It is rich and wonderful and exciting to explore and to reappropriate that discovery of connection and meaning.
And of course the phenomenon is not limited to the New Testament, though it is there, along with instances in the Old, that it is canonical for us. When we go beyond the canon we find it galore. The literature of the ancient church delights in it, and we find it also in the works of rabbinic Judaism, wonderful rich midrashim, discovering or extending or exploring correspondences and insights, sometimes building on narrative elaboration of the story and sometimes even on the mere letters, or the numerical values of the letters, of the holy texts. Sometimes we would say the result is, or might be, lovely truth, and sometimes we might say it's rather crazy, and often we might say that of course it's crazy but still affords something rather cool, something thought-provoking, even something true.
(And incidentally, the crazily inventive extreme of this phenomenon is still very much with us. American pre-millenialist apocalypticism has always abounded with its exercise, and one of the ugliest and most pathologically impressive things I've seen recently is a video circulating on the web strongly insinuating, with help from Strong's Concordance, that Jesus told us in Luke 10:18 that the actual name of the Antichrist would be Barak Obama. But note that I put this in parentheses. I know that we are not here discussing such idiocy. It's just scary what people can do with the Bible sometimes. [And I recognize that anybody who says what I just did invites a cheap shot in response; let me trust you not to take it.])
So my first point is that I love the making and discovery of meaning, connection, and implication. All of us do it, and need to do it, but some of us are temperamentally and intellectually inclined to love and do it more than others. I'm definitely in that group. And so it bothered me, and felt like at least a potential reproach, when I heard my father warn against the tendency of pastors and exegetes to treat the Scriptures as a kind of "holy orange" out of which to squeeze every last drop of the juice of meaning. After all, isn't that what we're supposed to do, and isn't the juice sweet and holy, and isn't that what the orange, I mean the Bible, is for?
But, as is often the case with parental admonitions, eventually I came to understand the wisdom in my father's cautionary words. We have managed to do some significant harm on occasion, down through our history as people of the Book, by the extension and elaboration of meanings beyond what the text necessarily meant. (Come to think of it, some-- I'm not saying all-- of the silliness in some of the perceived clashes between science and scripture also stem from this problem.) So a certain humility of reading needs to be coupled with our excited pleasure in the discovery of extended meaning. And such a tempering humility seems a virtue in short supply among us so privileged with the spiritual riches of scripture and tradition.
A helpful analogy (and I think it is probably more closely related than as just an analogy) is the classic theological distinction between doctrine and dogma. Dogma is of course doctrinal but not all doctrine, including not all good and helpful doctrine, is dogmatic. Dogma is the teaching that has been defined as essential for the life and identity of the Church. It creates the limits within which other doctrines are taught, debated, and applied. Systems are built by systematicians and sermons are preached by pastors and prayers are prayed and Christian lives are led on the wide ground thus enclosed. I love good dogmatic theology and I love good systematics, but no theologian should confuse his or her work with dogma beyond what in fact is dogmatic and canonical. Even for the best of them, perhaps especially for the best of them, humility is a needed procedural virtue.
So when I was younger I wouldn't for a moment have hesitated to squeeze doctrine out of this text in much the way that you seem to feel is its evident meaning. As I say, I love that way of reading texts. Except now I've been slowed down, and cautioned by experience, and had reason to think more critically and carefully. And maybe what you say and think here, the way I too would have thought about it in my youth, is good doctrine (there are certainly some good things to be found there), but as doctrine it ain't dogma. You could be right about this, or maybe I am, but the insistence that this *is* the single hermeneutical key to all issues of sexuality cannot and should not be made into an ecclesial dogma, nor should its questioning be deemed heretical and anathema.
That's probably enough on this. I'm about to head off to a 3-day pastoral convocation with colleagues here in New England so I will likely be out of touch for a while. Please do not interpret my silence as my having gone off to pout, retreated with my proverbial tail between my legs, or otherwise surrendered my conviction that for all the bitterness of our disagreements we meet, or at least will finally meet, at the foot of the cross. We cannot entirely get free of each other. As they say, we're blood-kin, and the Blood is not our own.
In Christ,
John
COMMENT
In terms of the disputations Luther is making a distinction between theologians of glory and theologians of the cross. Perhaps this is quite telling in light of how we are engaged currently in a clear debate and disagreement about the authority of God's Word.
I've read Elert as well
Natural for unnatural
Isn't this the old, tried and true routine of "God made me this way?"
Bank robbers, prostitutes, drug addicts can all make the same case. And yes, "I am sleeping around the neighborhood because God made me this way." This is not a sloution from the Gospel however which calls for something different.
The nature you are defending is one that results from "God abandoning" them to that unnatural state. What they now claim as their "nature" remains unnatural to God, His people, the Church, and to most of civilized history including the present world.
The dialogue you seek has passed. It was ignored long ago and overshouted by gay politics which alone, not Scripture, makes this day possible for you. The whole point of the Gospel to me is that God overcomes our nature; not condones or celebrates it as you imagine. What do you think the woman at the well had to say to her roomie? God made us this way, so why not?
God abandoned them. Seems you forgot that part.
"natural for unnatural"
It may be that you ask the question rhetorically, sure of the answer, but if the question is sincere and involves a wondering, or even if it doesn't, let me answer and say what I would have hoped was clear from my words: No, it isn't.
I hope that rereading my words in a more charitable and patient fashion will reveal that such was not my argument. But let me also call attention to a part of my remarks about Romans 1. One of the things I discovered in study of Romans 1 was that "physike" was used not so much as a reference to the way we moderns, shaped by both the Enlightenment and by Romanticism as well as by science, think of Nature, with its passions, instincts, and inclinations, but rather as an evocation of that higher nature which calls such forces to control and right use. The Greek philosophical valuing of continence, of moderation and self-control, was deemed an expression and accord with, rather than a suppression of, the proper "nature" of men and women (and somewhat more so of men, the head over the body. Similarly, early Judaism saw in the culture of Greco-Roman gentiles the correspondence of two phenomena, idolatry and sexual indulgence, particularly same-sex relations, and the rabbis related the two as examples of allegiance and appetite that had gone out of balance, out of proper control. Orgiastic sexuality, in quest of kicks to the point even of seeking sex with members of one's own gender, was of course seen, for a number of reasons, as the height, or the nadir, of such incontinent abandonment of our proper nature, the rotten fruit of human idolatry. And into that sick abandon, Paul says, God has let these idolaters go. From both a Greek philosophical and a pharisaical perspective, that's the disgrace where such idolatry and sensuality lead. We should read and take warning, nor least if the forms of our idolatry are more subtle and those of our indulgence more respectable.
But if we narrow our understanding of this text to words about "homosexuality," or "homosexual orientation," it seems to me we have made these inspired words mean both more and less than they say. More because they may not describe or explain every instance of people falling in love with people of their own sex, and less because such a focus evades the issues of idolatry and incontinence that have their hooks also in our culture.
As to your concluding use, and I think misapplication, of the words "God abandoned them," I have further words and thoughts, but as I suspect that those would only be perceived as argumentation from the other side of the issue rather than words from a pastoral heart and mind, I will just express my hope that others, more congenial to you, would address with you the theological and pastoral implications there.
John
Bible verses
It is quite remarkable in your defense of your "natural" state in your eyes, you cannot defend it from any clear passage. All must enter into some strange interpretation, some new nuance, that catches the chaff and leaves the kernals of truth behind.
You place yourself in the position of the young man. "All these I have kept from my youth." Jesus let him walk away too in the end. I am afraid this is where you will head, to a position that no one can share without breaking the idea that Scripture is the Word of God and not a pin cushion that you keep sticking til you get the picture you want.
God abandaned them because of their idolatry, of choosing self hood to live as their fallen nature dictated. How you do not see yourself is a high and practiced art you have more than mastered. But you fail to convince.
So without the return to clear Scripture, you have run out of words.
the rich young man
I am sorry that you see my reading of this part of Romans 1 as such complicated evasion. It seems to me rather straightforward and powerful, a very present as well as ancient challenge to our cultures of idolatry, self-indulgence, and excess, sexuality and desire run amok. The fact that I have had to think more carefully about what Paul understood by what the English translates as "natural" and "unnatural" and then have learned something with possible implication for the particular question of "what the Bible says about homosexuality" doesn't make me either clever or evasive, and it really isn't all that difficult to understand (I think). It does however reflect the fact that just because a translation of scripture seems immediately understandable we shouldn't assume that we have rightly understood it.
I would guess you know that but just don't believe that it applies to this case.
Thank you for the reminder about the rich young man. As you might imagine, I don't believe it applies to me as a teacher and preacher in quite the way you describe, but, God knows, I am, especially by global standards, a rich man, a privileged American in profound danger of being possessed by my possessions. (The church is, incidentally, a gift to me as it helps me contend with that deadly bondage in this society and culture.) Thank you for the reminder.
But also this: I am no longer young, at the age of 61 being two years into my seventh decade, but I am indeed a very fortunate person, rich in so many ways, not just in the material comfort of the "fortunate" but in so many gifts and blessings of life. I have been lucky and privileged in a lot of ways that bid me think about what responsibility or sacrifice (at least of humility and thanksgiving but often more) may be entailed or invited. And then, amid the thoughts about marriage and family and heritage and community and so much else, I find myself coming to the acknowledgment that one additional way in which I have been privileged over some others is that I am heterosexual.
I don't think very many, if any, of us end up utterly unscathed by from embarrassments, struggles, or regrets related to our sexuality, but still I know that I have never had to feel (at least for very long) that the sexuality that emerged in my puberty was something utterly shameful, unacceptable, or disordered, let alone that it was an indication that I had been "abandoned by God." I've never had to feel "queer," or "evil," or "perverse" for my sexual desire, nor have I felt a need to hide my orientation. I am, after all, one of the normal people in that regard. Lucky for me. Life can get difficult enough as it is.
By the way, when I think about this, I sometimes wonder whether perhaps *some* of those who speak of a sexuality or orientation as a choice and a faithfulness have indeed personally experienced it as such. People hardly ever speak of it that way, referencing their personal experience of desires and attractions, and of course many of the of us would, like me and maybe you, report our own sexuality as an unconflicted given. If that given is in the majority norm, as they seem to be in my case, perhaps we tend to be insensitive to those who, unlike us, have struggled to choose or join that norm (whether by marriage or by a celibate militancy against gayness). I know I've often overlooked the possibility of such private struggle on the part of others and I fear that I have been inadvertently callous as to the anguish involved. I wish I had been more thoughtful and compassionate about what may have been very lonely and haunted.
Are you too among the fortunate in this regard? Or have you had to struggle with this? Or are such questions utterly nonsensical, given the interpretation that same-sex attraction is the sign or product of God's abandonment? Presumably, then, you, not being abandoned, are like me in not feeling conflicted or not having had to choose.
Or does nobody choose, because it's just determined by whether God has abandoned us or not? Or, once abandoned, do we then have any real choice to deny our improper desire? Forgive me if these questions seem stupid. I'm just trying to understand how you're thinking about this. And I sincerely wonder about that.
Yours in Christ,
John
Explain please
"It may be that you ask the question rhetorically, sure of the answer, but if the question is sincere and involves a wondering, or even if it doesn't, let me answer and say what I would have hoped was clear from my words: No, it isn't."
Could you explain this to me. "No" is an answer my wife gives. But from you, I would like a little more explanation. Lutheran theology puts a great deal of emphasis on "nature" verses "acts". How do you escape your fallen nature to celebrate that which is "broken" and unnatural to 98% of society?
Then you go to great lengths to justify it without the use of any clear passage. Bank robbers and yes even prostitutes have to justify themselves, don't they?
What is the Gospel to you? Perhaps this will be your clearest answer yet. You seem inclined to represent your state as the more sanitized version of what people hate, the slimey, erotica, of lust only, of mad craving. And like the young man, "that's not me". You are hiding in the "acts" without realizing it is only degrees that before God remain unnatural. God has created male and female. This plain purpose you reject to suit your needs, not His.
The reason I ask you about the Gospel is this. It is the only way out of your quagmire. But you must be willing to forsake the quagmire you are in. You must rather despair of it and say, "dear God deliver me from this for there is an eternity at stake." Until that time, you remain, as one abandoned by their Creator because you first abandoned the Creator in wallowing in this lifestyle.
Show some of the soul searchihng you are hoping to see from the pastoral heart. How distant are you from the gay political action groups or is their theology correct too?
"wallowing"?
(I see from your note that you have a wife and so I now surmise your gender.) As I just wrote to James Gustafson, I'm about to head out of town and have just about run out of time for this business (for the time being). Yet I felt I owed you some sort of response since you wrote so quickly, and I felt with some passion, in response to me. I'm at a bit of a loss with some of this, for I thought I'd been pretty explicit in my awareness of sin, including my own and your sinful nature, and in my concern about sinful acts. We obviously have an issue of significant disagreement between us, and in that regard I have tried to explain, albeit apparently with little or no success, to you and others here how it is I hear the scriptures speaking. (Maybe I'll try again but it will have to wait a few days; I have a life and a calling beyond this, you see.)
You do sometimes write as if you think that I am myself homosexual, which would certainly come as a surprise to both my wife and myself. I don't want to make too much of the fact that I'm not, but I wondered if that's what you were thinking when you described me "as one abandoned by their Creator because you first abandoned the Creator in wallowing in this lifestyle. " Perhaps the point you were making was that merely by suggesting that there was room in the church for gay and lesbian folks I had myself, my own sexuality notwithstanding, become such a wallower, abandoning and abandoned.
I do sometimes wallow, usually in self-pity, and I do repeatedly confess, and believe, that I am in bondage to sin and cannot free myself. I give thanks for the liberating word of the Gospel that raises me up to new life and gracious freedom. I both seek to practice and to call for repentance, and I know that even redeemed and justified I shall need, and do need, to return to the font and the cross as a sinner. "Simul justus et peccator." That's not cheap grace, at least not insofar as we get it right; it is good Lutheran realism and gratitude.
But your description of my life, of the quagmire and of my need for despair and of the "the more sanitized version of what people hate, the slimey, erotica, of lust only, of mad craving" seems to have more to do with your imagination than with my reality.
And if those words describe, as I reckon they do, what you mean by the "lifestyle" in which you think I'm wallowing, let me say yet again that I'm against promiscuity, selfishness, exploitation, etc., and that includes slimey erotica, lust only, and mad craving.
That's not all your questions but will have to do. In my last note to you I asked you (heterosexual to heterosexual as we are) a bit about your own experience and thinking relative to *your* orientation and how you pictured orientation functioning in others. You'd written a fair amount about that but I didn't feel quite sure how it was you felt and imagined it. If you want to go back to those questions and send me your thoughts I can look at them when I return in a few days.
In Christ,
John
My reply
Won't a real one talk to us? I really feel let down now.
Wow!
Oh, now I get it. You really died think this was "from the other side" of the sexual orientation distinction. Wow! No, when Sarah Wilson gave that title to my little essay, she did so to indicate that my views differed from the editorial position and the consensus of Lutheran Forum and its apparent constituency. That's all. I had already referenced that fact in some other part of this commentary. I don't know whether to laugh or cry about that misunderstanding, as an example of how we end up talking past each other.
Apparently, then you also thought that the words I used to describe the "novum" with which some of us had been confronted were my own words for my own experience. Again, no. In my original tex those words were italicized in order to set them off more clearly from the original text, a typographical device that this website apparently does not allow, but even so you might note that those words were prefaced with and formed the conclusion to this:
"People, brothers and sisters in Christ, began to stand up and say, often at considerable risk and with painful consequence, words to this effect: ..."
I instinctively want to apologize for the misunderstanding, but it occurs to me that I also need to ask you to read with greater care.
And speaking of misunderstanding, it's something that others can inflict on you as well. Your last comment about "a real one" could so easily be heard as having the tinge of contempt and dehumanization, a quality that when perceived usually discourages conversation. I'm sure you don't want to be understood that way. It would be much more effective to ask if perhaps an actual rave and thoughtful gay or lesbian person would be willing to put him- or herself out here to try to convey what his or her experiences and thoughts on this issue have been. My guess, however, is that at the moment the tone here would make it hard for such an individual to feel very welcome.
Peace,
John
BTW, I live in a fairly old house, from the era when people relied more on wardrobes and we lack sufficient closet space for our clothes, let alone for hiding. No space over the garage either.
Tired of the parrots
How do you preach the Gospel as a gay pastor? What is sin anymore? Basic questions. Let's start there. Thank you John for a job well done. But it's time to perch the parrot.
Tired of the parrots
How do you preach the Gospel as a gay pastor? What is sin anymore? Basic questions. Let's start there. Thank you John for a job well done. But it's time to perch the parrot.
luthersterotypicus...
I have strong disagreements with him on many parts of this issue, which have occasionally been quite angry. My fault, my sinful nature. That does not excuse it.
Remember Luther's interpretation of the Eighth Commandment, which I am just as guilty as anyone of violating.
Unless there is proof that Pastor Stendahl is homosexual, such as self-designation, I believe we should take him at his word that he is not.
comment
It is up to God (ie. the Holy Spirit) to change people's hearts and it is for the hearer/sinner (which includes myself) to receive the effectiveness in faith. My job as a Christian pastor is simply to offer what God has offered in Christ who is for others.
I guess I refuse to play into the psychological games in terms of responding to anyone. I simply say what I want to say and it is the responsibility of the other to hear and respond, if they wish, from their own basis.
The path is incorrect because the first steps lead away from the scriptures direction.
In these changes, the church and body were foretold and promised these changes long before they occurred. As Abraham was promised a nation of heirs (that would inherit Israel and his offspring would be a blessing to all nations), as Moses was promised to lead his people out of bondage and to the more faithful place, as David was promised to establish the kingdom, as Isaiah promised a future Messiah and a blessing to all nation, as even the inclusion of Gentiles was promised and foretold, none of these changes ran contrary to the promises of before. It may have been hard for the early Jewish Christian to accept the first Gentile, but Paul says that he was called to do preach to the Gentiles within just a few years after Jesus’ resurrection. Even Jesus himself proclaimed that the branch would be cut off and new branch put in it’s place and how the Roman had more faith than he had seen in all of Israel. The examples for these changes were well foretold, they do not lend credibility to this change now because this change has no such foretelling. It is just change. In fact, the scripture better warns against the day that such changes will occur, but the scripture says these changes will be wrong things, not good things. Such as 2 Peter 2:2 “And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.” And also Jude 1:4 “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality”, among many other more frequently repeated passages against this exact distortion of grace and freedom.
Pr. Stendahl wrote: “challenges have come along to confront our communal assumptions, backed up by Biblical texts, about the naturalness of slavery, the divine right of kings, the centrality of the earth relative to the sun, the proper and submissive role of women, and many other issues.”
And all of these issues are represented in different parts of the scripture, Moses leading the slaves to freedom, Israel was founded without kings but the people insisted on it, the universe in all its glory being incomprehensible to man by the playground of God, and women were both liberated and empowered by the scriptures directly, not just subjugated. Scripture teaches us of these changes, but scripture does not foretell a time when the two halves of God creation would be disregarded, scripture does not tell of a time when God disregards his original intent for creating both male and female.
Pr. Stendahl wrote: “I am as those in Romans 1, a person who has desire for those of my own sex. Yet I do not see myself in those words of Paul. I have not “exchanged the natural for the unnatural;” this is my nature.”
Romans doesn’t say whether the subject of his discourse believe they were natural or unnatural, but it does say that they “were consumed with passion for one another,” exactly as described by the homosexuals of today. Nowhere does Paul tell us if they were exchanging marriage vows with each other, nowhere does he say this passion for each other was in their own minds promiscuous or simply sensual , but it does say that “God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,” and he says that “because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,” exactly as the argument is that their own bodies force them to be this way, as if they have no free will, they take the ‘creature’ to be more than God and Gods word and God’s design. All of it exactly as it is now. There is no ‘new’ homosexuality’, there is no new bodily creation, there is nothing new it is all just vanity and looking inward instead of looking outward. I have no doubt that they want to serve the lord, I have no doubt that they hear Gods calling, but the same with every one else on the planet, we are all sinners and we must confess it and pattern test ourselves against what IS in the scripture, not what we want it to be changed to.
The rest of your paper progresses from that position that I already found lacking and unconvincing. So a step by step rebuttal in unnecessary, as that door is never entered if the scenario and scripture is presented completely and not half hidden.
"The path is incorrect"
I'm a slow writer and I really can't be spending the hours away from other duties that this sort of discussion requires.
But three things:
As to the way that the new things in scripture have precedent: Amen to that. When Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to his disciples, he also opened their eyes to what had been there all along. Of course this would happen. Of course this had to be. This is the kind of God we have, the sort of story we have shared down through the generations. Creation and Passover and Exodus, the Law and the Prophets. All those things we recount at the Easter Vigil before we get to the great Gospel announcement. When in the creed we say Jesus rode "in accordance with the Scriptures" it doesn't mean that you can go to the four gospels to look it up but rather refers to this great continuity.
And yet, when Jesus rose, was it not nonetheless as God's great surprise? Not just to the disciples but to us. And was it not *retrospectively* that they discovered the continuity. As Kierkegaard remarked, history is understood backwards but has to be lived forwards. (It's somewhat corny, but in this connection I often think of that popular Christian parable of the footprints in the sand.) So there are these great ahas! not only subsequent to the canon but also within it. When they come, they do find antitypes and paradigms in the words written before them, but they nonetheless sometimes surprise and challenge in the immediacy of their arrival. I could go on but it's getting late and maybe you yourself can recognize examples.
Secondly, of course I'm not advocating for any and all novel notion nor for blindness to the dangers of indulgent sins, seductive complicities, or destructive teaching. On the contrary, I'm seeking to be faithful here with the full knowledge that discerning faithfulness must challenge teachings that do harm or that fail to attend to sin's power over us. I had hoped that was clear, but I also tried to make it clearer in the responses above.
Thirdly, I have nowhere, nowhere, nowhere asked for or wished for a change to what IS in scripture, and the suggestion that that is what I am doing is precisely the sort of thing that I described as evoking a pained sense of both misunderstanding and insult. We do have differences in interpretation, but please don't insult me with the suggestion that such is my ermeneutical principle. It's not helpful.
Yours in Christ,
John
and Luther?
Where in Scripture does it foretell Luther's divisive split with the Catholic church? I think the Catholics of his time could just as easily said of him (especially considering his position on priestly marriage):
"The examples for these changes were well foretold, they do not lend credibility to this change now because this change has no such foretelling. It is just change. In fact, the scripture better warns against the day that such changes will occur, but the scripture says these changes will be wrong things, not good things. Such as 2 Peter 2:2 “And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.” And also Jude 1:4 “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality”"
Priest were always allowed to marry until the Catholics disallowed it
Response to Pr. Stendahl
I'm sure you've read it, in which case I would like to see from you arguments to Gagnon's claims. If you've not read it, then please, please do and return to the forum with your thoughts.
In Christ,
Michael
On your questions about Robert Gagnon
I am not surprised that someone would ask about Gagnon but the prospect of answering did not thrill me. I have indeed read Gagnon's book, and have heard him lecture, and have watched his PowerPoint presentations. I have thought about what he has to say. And here's the painful part, especially given that you seem to admire him: I am not very positively impressed. His scholarship, his exegesis, his historical analysis, and his theological insight have seemed wanting to me.
In what I wrote up above in response to the first commentator on my words you can find a major part of my objection to Gagnon's approach, one touched on also in a paragraph of my brief essay, namely his extension of and, I believe, misapplication of certain texts to construct a system of condemnation and revulsion which is neither in those texts nor demanded by them. I've heard him both attack and deride a number of the things I said in my essay, but I don't think he has successfully refuted them. You said he "rebuts" them and I suppose that may possibly be a correct verb to use if one uses it in the sense of rebuttal time in a debate; I don't feel refuted, nor for the most part even, sad to say, sympathetically engaged with an interesting argument in his words.
It's interesting to me that you call his work"magisterial." It seems a good word to describe the comprehensiveness of his concern and argument, and in its root meaning it also suggests his clear intent to be a teacher. But personally it seems to me that this magisterium comes to me the way that the Pope's sometimes does for many non-Roman Catholics, failing to convince and without credible claim on us that we have to assent. I know that Gagnon enjoys considerable popularity in certain circles, particularly as we have politicized ourselves around "homosexuality", and in that context could be said to exercise a kind of magisterial authority. But in my world and in my study there are many others who seem to me to speak more cogently and convincingly.
And there of course lies part of the difficulty: I said, quite intentionally, "in my world" knowing that it suggests how it is that we tend to inhabit different worlds of discourse most of the time. Sometimes they overlap (e.g., I have after all read and heard Robert Gagnon) but for the most part on different sides of our ideological divides we read different journals, attend to different speakers, and generally operate with different frames of reference. (And that, incidentally, is one of the reasons that the church as a communion of the ideologically divided is so precious a gift and why the Bible itself as a common reference point is so vital: imagine how even more terrible our alienation becomes when we lose even that!)
When I heard Gagnon lecture, I wondered about the hard edge of anger and resentment in his tone, and I thought of the words of James: "The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." Then I thought perhaps I was being unfair on that score; maybe he was just having a bad day. Maybe he wasn't normally so insultingly dismissive or caustic about the thought of others. Or, I thought, maybe it was because in this case, at this particular conference, his was clearly a minority position going into the conversation. The closest person to him on the ideological spectrum was the conservative but progressive evangelical Baptist Tony Campolo, and as you may know that wasn't very close. In fact, Tony seemed to me as astounded and perplexed by both the tone and substance of some of Bob's assertions as most of the more moderate-to-liberal scholars seemed. So, I thought, maybe in a more congenial setting, with a friendlier audience, there would have been a more generous and engaging, if not exactly irenic tone. I like to think so.
I could probably say more and also (if only I had more time) try to rebut all the rebuttals to which you refer. But perhaps I've said enough already. I don't want to speak ill of Professor Gagnon and in telling you of my reactions to his work I have perhaps been unkind or unfair.
Still, the major point I would want to make, and the one that has most to do with the point of my speech-become-an-essay, is that I ask people who appreciate and find themselves convinced by Gagnon to remember that neither he nor any other scholar is an infallible magisterium for the church, and that there are many competent and faithful scholars who disagree, and that there are diverse other conscience-held convictions among our biblical scholars, theologians, and ethicists as well. Or is the consequence of thinking Gagnon correct, or probably correct, or more right than wrong, to rule all those many scholars who disagree as being without standing or value for our church? Simply remembering that the church has more faithful and careful theologians than fit exclusively on one side (or the other) of this controversy would seem salutary. I want to remind my sisters and brothers in Christ of that there is danger in privileging only those with whom one agrees as teachers to whom one will listen.
I recognize that some do argue that this is precisely the problem, that this notion that there is room for disagreement among us is the very liberal notion that conservatives are objecting to, and/or that it's just a sham anyway because there won't be any real room for conservatives in the diversity that's envisioned. I don't believe that problem is fatal or insoluble for there is also a robust and vital sort of conservative tradition that can find its way to blessings, given and received, within such difficult circumstances, but I mention the objection because I want to acknowledge the problem of the perceived logical impasse involved in recognizing divergent theological voices and judgments. I understand and sympathize with the difficulty. Nevertheless, it does seem to me a good thing to bear in mind that even when one argues or believes that a question has been settled there can be, and in this case are, sisters and brothers, scholars and teachers, who do not find it so, and yet others for whom it appears settled otherwise. At that point it can seem very affirming, even inspiring, to listen only to those whose judgment confirms my own. It just doesn't seem particularly Christian.
Yours in Christ,
John
Appeal to emotion
I am not sure how much experience you have with logical fallacies, but as I was reading this, one - the fallacy of appeal to emotion/popular sentiment (argumentum ad populum) - kept making itself apparent.
I do not see how the Church - any branch of it - by holding to traditional Biblical interpretation, is responsible for exacerbating the AIDS crisis. Except for Fred Phelps, I really don't see a correlation between the two. As someone whose life's vocation has to do with human behaviour (good and bad), I have seen many, many case studies of the choices of human beings. There is not a provable correlation between traditional Church teaching and those who choose to do things like go to gay bathhouses or "cruise" Interstate rest areas trolling for anonymous homosexual encounters.
First of all, I never use the acronyms "GLBT," "LGBT," "LGBTQ," or whatever the flavour of the month is. I look at the issue from the point of view of homosexual or heterosexual. I do not see the need to differentiate between male and female homosexuals. Heterosexual men and women are usually not differentiated, so there is no need to do that with homosexuals.
The jury is out biologically on the "I was made this way." I learnt that early on. Homosexual orientation (as opposed to behaviour) is a combination of several factors of nature and nurture, and no two combinations are the same for any two people. There are those who choose to act on homosexual impulse experimentally, and remain heterosexual. There are those who may feel the inclination, and never act on it. There are those who consider themselves heterosexual and have clandestine homosexual encounters (the "on the down low" approach, which is responsible for many cases of HIV being spread through heterosexual contact).
There are those who, due to reasons of environment (such as prison, same-gender boarding school, etc.), become homosexual, but once removed from that environment, revert to heterosexuality and never have a homosexual encounter again. This is not limited to homosexuality. Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo both did very well-known studies of human behaviour being affected by setting and the behaviour of those around them.
Also, nothing is said of bisexuality. In fact, I have never seen a case of a true bisexual, equally and forcefully attracted to both genders. There is almost always an inclination toward one or the other. Even if that inclination is 55/45, that is not truly "bisexual" in the strictest sense of the term.
Biblically, as I have stated before, there is no support for homosexual relations, period. "Monogamous, same-gender, committed, etc." is an artificial construct of the ELCA's sexuality "task forces." Some cite Ruth/Naomi, David/Jonathan or even the centurion and his servant. None of those meet the criteria for unabashed endorsement of homosexual behaviour, or the kind of relationships the ELCA has condoned. In contrast, there are many negative references to homosexual behaviour, most of which I'm sure you know. I dispute the hypotheses that whether they have to do with condemnation of gang rape (Sodom and Gomorrah), paederasty (the Greek culture of Paul's day) or idol worship (Paul's thesis in Romans 1), that there must conversely be an approval of the "loving, committed" sort. This is the fallacy of non sequitur (fallacy of false cause) or perhaps "irrelevant conclusion."
Appeals to emotion are not cogent arguments on which to build doctrine.
Before someone states the obvious and says that I am being too clinical and treating human beings purely as case studies, I say this: in this area, you would be right. This is the best way I know of to analyse the issue without myself resorting to emotional appeal.
Also, never have I believed that repentant homosexuals are outside of God's grace or (Peter, take note) "the gospel." However, I do not believe that "the gospel" gives one carte blanche to take the attitude of "I'm saved, I'm in Christ, so I can do what I want to, all that matters is that Jesus didn't address it directly."
And it is because I believe these things and will not move from them that I have found more than sufficient in statu confessionis to remove myself from the ELCA.
emotional appeals
There's more here than I have time to respond to right now but I want to start, Then perhaps I can resume this thread later.
I don’t know. I went back over what I have written and I don’t think the arguments are fallacious, I’ve studied logic also and I think they hold up pretty well. Sometimes, of course, the force of an argument and the logic of a conclusion may be evident to the writer but have no such cogency for the reader. The reader may then indeed perceive a non-sequitur, but it may be that he fault was not with the logic per se but with the communication or explanation involved. Sometimes people who have said “I just don’t get this!” will say after an explanation or further conversation, “Oh now I get it!” And sometimes, then, the problem wasn’t in the logic but in the communication difficulties. (Or, on the other hand, maybe the writer really was illogical, but managed to get the reader to accept his illogic, or maybe the reader was just being polite ,or hoping to put an end to the conversation,, or meant no more than “Oh now I understand what you were trying to say.”
But anyway, I had thought that I had been pretty careful not to fall into the trap of argument from emotion. I did speak of emotion as I believed appropriate and even necessary to the narrative and context of the discussion of scripture. But when I referred to the suffering that I saw our traditional condemnation of homosexuality to have entailed I made a point of doing so parenthetically and of saying explicitly that I was not offering that as a part of the *logical* argument I was pursuing.
That argument was, you may remember, about how it was possible that some of us could read, love, and seek to be true to the scriptures and then believe ourselves faithful even as we supported and eventually voted for the proposed changes in policy. The original title of this little essay was “How CouldThis Be? For its inclusion on the Lutheran Forum website, the editor prudently provided the warning title about it coming from “the other side.” Within the context of that explanation, I didn’t argue from emotion but from my thinking about what and how certain scriptural passages mean, or actually what they might legitimately be understood to mean, for this was not a maximalist argument, claiming to know for sure and demanding assent from all. It was (in a way I believe true to the tradition of the reformers) an argument for acknowledged possibility, for legitimacy even in disagreement, and for some respectful understanding.
That plea is of course emotional, but I think I managed to keep my description of how I had come to understand the scriptural and hermeneutical issues at hand pretty cool and rational. I think I did.
But maybe when you suggest that I argued from emotion you mean simply that I had not entirely excluded the acknowledgments of feeling that surrounded the argument for me. True, but I don’t think I should have. We’re not talking computer technology here but matters that affect people’s lives and hearts.
Or, again, perhaps, the appeal to emotion at stake was my plea at the end. Yes that was emotional. I feel that way about this whole messy, beautiful, frustrating, sometimes ugly, flesh-and-blood church thing that has been entrusted to us. I love it, and I believe Jesus does too.
As I said, there were some more things I wanted to respond to in your comment--including some points on which I agree with you, but this is all I've got time to say right now. It is a Sunday afternoon, after all. But be patient with me and , Deo volente, I'll get back to you soon.
In Christ,
John
Emotion
With such an emotionally-charged issue, it is difficult NOT to have emotion creep in.
After all, we are emotional beings.
I have worked for many years at the self-discipline of clinical detachment, with varying degrees of success. I have found that if I do not detach in certain situations, I get sucked into the emotionalism, and that is sometimes not a good thing.
However, the detachment can also create the unwanted impression of being cold and unfeeling, especially on an Internet forum. Nuances of behaviour such as facial expressions and tonal inflections are absent here.
I wouldn't say you excluded logic entirely, but perhaps your emotional investment in this issue coloured your reasoning. I would be very surprised if it didn't.
Pax Christi
DP
a bit more in response
I said I would continue my response to your note entitled "Appeal to emotion" when I had the chance. I had answered, or at least attempted a defense in response to, your complaint as to the level of , or possibly misuse of , emotion in my argument, but there were other points you had put forward that I thought deserved some comment.
First, let me note that I also eschew the use of terms like LGBT or LBGTQ, although I find it unnecessarily ungracious to give people a hard time if they use those terms as shorthand abbreviations. I can be sympathetic in regard to some of the practical concerns and difficulties that have driven the resort to such shorthand, but I myself tend to avoid it. My objection, in addition to the matters of stylistic awkwardness and jargon, have to do both with the fact that people are not letters or categories and that this usage tends to reduce and distort possibly quite diverse and complex realities. I am pleased to see that in your note you youself recognize that there are matters on which “the jury is still out.” There is altogether too much generalization and false certainty about these matters from both sides of the debate.
As I think about that, I come back to another point, one that I made also in passing within my essay namely that this objection applies also to the 20th century category of “homosexuality.” As a blanket term it encourages a lot of sloppy thinking. Is it always one and the same thing in its etiology and expression, or are there rather “homosexualities”? Is it really, to use a rather silly word, a single “lifestyle?” I have thoughts about all this, but I am not claiming to have the answer; I am, rather, once again, pleading for humility. (And I will trust you to recognize that exercising such humility is not the same thing as saying that there is no such thing as evident and vile sin in human life: that canard we can do without.)
I suppose, much as I dislike the alphabet soup of "GLBTQ," that I could argue that there's some value in the reminder there that, while our own sexuality may seem simple to us, or to most folks, there are human experiences of gender that don't fit that simplicity. You acknowledge at least the possibility of a spectrum of attraction ("Even if that inclination is 55/45..."), and you also indicate believing in identities solidly on one end or the other of that spectrum. I find the existence of various kinds of so-called "transgendered" persons makes all this even more interesting, and our impositions of simple polarities even less certain.
You were apparently unable to find any merit in the reference I made to “the culpability of our churches for the spread of AIDS in the 1980’s, the guilt upon us for what happened in the shadows of our absolute clarities.” (I did, btw, specify that I was referring to that thought as a topic for future conversation and not using it as part of my present argument.) Fred Phelps and his ilk are certainly extreme and I’m certainly not putting you and all other “traditionalists” into that category, but I believe you are naïve if you do not think that a great many of our churches—lovely, good, grace-giving communities in so many ways—have succeeded in communicating to many of their adolescents and youth the sort of understanding that our brother Luthersterotypicus has articulated here: that their sexual desires proclaim their abandonment by God. Some of those young people survive to some degree of responsible adulthood and some come to believe that their God has not abandoned them, but many have also despaired and many have made the notion that their sexuality can be nothing but vile selfishness a self-fulfilling judgment. For all our talk about “loving the sinner and hating only the sin.” thousands of our churches children have experienced ostracism and hatred for who they are. Placed, by definition, beyond the pale of morality, and believing it, that’s where they lived.
Also this: I was struck, some years back, by the testimony of a Roman Catholic priest who was spoke of this irony. In his confessional the same man could come, over and over again, full of self-loathing and remorse, to confess sordid instances of anonymous sex with some stranger in a rest room stall, repeatedly promising, once again amendment of life, and each time that miserable man could be absolved and restored to the sacramental community of the church, his very self-loathing a manifestation of his spirit of repentance. If, however, a man should come and ask acceptance of his living together with a man he loved, the two of them supporting each other, faithful to each other, trying to make a life together, that resolve would properly be deemed unrepentant sin, the man unabsolvable and excluded by his own choice. The priest saw something absurd in that.
Peace,
John
freedom in Christ
I think we have two different ideas of what Christian freedom is. Elert's definition of freedom seems particularly striking to me: "freedom is when you want to do what you ought to do". In that context, the attitude of "I'm in Christ, so I can do what I want to" is entirely appropriate, and that's directly comes from one's encounter with Christ. Consider Paul's words (repeated twice, no less) in Corinthians that "all things are lawful for me, but not everything is beneficial".
This also pertains to your "non sequitur" of 'if it's not wrong, it must be right'. The approval for homosexual relationships does not automatically follow from the fact that because certain passages only address homosexuality as the outgrowth of other evils everything else MUST be ok, but rather from our Christian freedom. Is homosexuality beneficial? What forms of it are beneficial? Right now, the witness we have from fellow Christians is that they find love, support, strength, encouragement to live in Christ and faith to trust Him from committed, lifelong, monogamous homosexual relationships.
The other kicker is that by "beneficial" I mean (and I think Paul and Luther mean) that Article IV of the Augsburg Confession must be our measure of that.
Where have I heard this before?
Isn't this original sin, plain and simple? Are we as wise as God?
No
More relevant from Genesis is the nature of the fruit that God commanded them not to eat-- 'knowledge of good and evil'. You need that fruit to condemn homosexuality and we know the consequences of eating that fruit-- "for on that day, you shall surely die".
Yes
response
As sinners we can use our reasoning all we want to...but history does repeat itself. We are not only sinners but we are also at the same time condemned to death as people who have no hope. This is life under God's law, folks. So any resolution to these issues are on the plane of nomological existence, or life under God's law.
The Gospel is something totally different and far and away from what either the ELCA is doing or we in our own hearts are doing.
to Everyone: repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
not quite
Also, I'm not affirming homosexual relationships on the grounds of the Law; I'm affirming on the grounds of the Gospel. Homosexual relationships, like heterosexual ones, are important for the proclamation of the Gospel and for trusting that message.
there is no middle ground
ethical dilemmas require knowledge of good and evil
Without Scripture how do we know Christ?
we do know Christ through Scripture
Scripture Readings and Trusting in it or not
Another option is to read it with an eye to matching it to what we expect it to say, and when it does we focus of those, but when we are exposed to area of scripture that don’t match our preexisting expectation we try to dismiss it, reconfigure it, retranslate it, reshape it or obfuscate what it say so much that can no longer stand against our understanding.
The Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses for examples are experts that later type of scripture reading, they have confounded the normal reading of scripture so much that they needed to write another book entirely in the Mormons case, or make their own translation entirely and disparage all other translations for having been ‘changed and altered’ through the ages as in the Jehovah Witnesses case, and they both claim that they are returning to the original “God inspired” word, regardless that there is no archaeological manuscripts of any kind that support their revealed interpretations that seem wholly new to the last two centuries or less. In much the same way that the Johnny come lately humanistic and secular ‘higher criticism’ exegesis found in liberalistic readings today. This type of reading seems to require that every verse that points to the unchallengeable divine or the singularity of truth or sole authority of God and his Kingdom and one truth for all etc., be obfuscated when needed or dismissed when possible or eliminated as inauthentic in extreme cases, but that only the most mundane and centralistic free Grace for all and love and good will and acceptance of all, come as you are no need to be changed or alter your previous behaviors, be preached and everything else be condemned as cold and or hard hearted and judgmental. This type of reading belongs with in the class of Mormon and JW interpretations. Demand scripture points to our theology or declare it damaged goods of one kind or another.
What kind of scripture reading have you been advocating in your posts? It seems clear to me.
everyone uses hermeneutics to read the Bible
Everyone comes to the Bible with an agenda. Yours is revealed in your statement "we have to try comprehend it and then implement what it says, changing ourselves to match it, not it to ourselves". That's biblicism-- both in the statement that our goal is trying to conform ourselves to our interpretation of Scripture, that we can so change ourselves, and this hermeneutic leads to the belief that we are made holy and saved through this goal. At the least, it makes an idol out of the Bible. This is exactly what the Reformation was about. The Catholics had 1500 years of trying to comprehend and implement their understanding of Scripture and we know what fruit that bore.
The agenda we need to come to Scripture with is trust that our salvation is solely dependent on God's final Word for us in Christ's atoning crucifixion and resurrection and not through any merit of ours. With that agenda, we can see both where people in Scripture stand condemned before God and God's saving Word-- that's the Law/Gospel distinction and THAT is the hermeneutic Lutherans confess.
Best go back and read Luther again Peter
Biblicism
It does not mean setting the Bible up as an idol. If it did, we'd have to chuck the word "biblical" too. When I think of setting the Bible up as an idol, I think of our brothers and sisters who are unbendingly "King James Only" (there's a Baptist church in North Carolina that is going to burn a load of other translations this weekend because they are "satanic"). It's not even setting up the "right" idol, since the KJV found in the U.S. is not even the "AV 1611"; it is a 1769 revision by William Blayney into American English.
"Biblicism" to me connotes having the Bible as our sole source of doctrine and practice, which, as you pointed out, James, was the entire point of the Reformation. The Roman Catholics of Luther's day had elevated papal and council pronouncements to a level equal to Scripture. Luther went against that, though he no doubt had any idea just what would happen once he got the ball rolling.
that's what happens when you idolize the Bible
All of that Catholic dogma had been built on Scripture and those 1500 years of trying to understand it, even if it was no longer recognizably Scripturally-based to you, me or Luther in 1500 AD. That's what happens when the church requires things other than faith for salvation.
After cutting all of that clear, the Reformers certainly had to back to what the Apostles taught. That's where they got their salvation theology and the proper hermeneutics for reading the Bible. But you also have to notice that Apostolic teaching is not exactly the same Christ's teaching, as made clear in parts such as AC28:65 where the Reformers specifically point to an example of Apostolic teaching that they disregard-- the abstinence from blood.
Jesus does command us to love Him and each other. That Law of love is one we all fail whether we'd like to or not. We all fall short of that expectation of God's that we love the neighbor as ourself. It is only through Christ's death and resurrection and our encounter with Him that we are able to fulfill the Law of love, and that's precisely because it is no longer a law. In other words, I think you have it backwards: we don't get closer to Jesus by trying to obey His commands, it is thanks to Jesus that we fulfill His commands.
?
??
As to faith, I do think we hold to two different gospels. Here's mine: that God in Christ, through His death and resurrection, reconciled the world unto Himself and promises the forgiveness of sins to all. Since the only way promises work is if they are trusted, you need trust in God. That alone and only is the way through which we may be forgiven for our sins.
comment
marriage or the Christian church conceptually drawn utilizing the above parameters.
comment
marriage or the Christian church conceptually drawn utilizing the above parameters.
original sin?
"Is your thesis... not the same question posed by the serpent in the Garden?
"Isn't this original sin, plain and simple? Are we as wise as God?"
I may be obtuse about this, but it seems to me that the answers to your three questions are: No, no, and no.
At first it seemed to me a most peculiar trivialization of the high and profound doctrine of original sin to identify it with my suggestion that we consider a possibility as to the extent of the applicability of a particular verse. But I suppose that what you're trying to argue is that I'm trying to get around God's command by bending or doubting the meaning of the words in the way that the serpent did to the command about the fruit in the garden. And moreover that thereby I am presuming that I am as wise as (or perhaps wiser than) God.
I do believe that original sin dwells in me. And in you. But your suggestion here does not match my sense of what I am doing or saying here. And it strikes me that one important aspect of what I have written is precisely a concern lest we, in proud but careless assumption of wisdom, end up using God's word wrongly, bringing more curse than blessing. I do understand that this sounds prideful to you and yet I intend it as a call to, and a working of, greater humility.
And yes, perchance I'm wrong. I know that. That's part of what the doctrine of original sin reminds me as well.
Yours in Christ,
John
AC IV yet again
Paul would not have known what AC IV was.
Luther, I believe, would have spouted some of his colourful metaphors, usually connected to various bodily functions.
I have not heard anyone else but you make this interpretation of AC IV. Not even my Seminex-educated former ELCA pastor, who turned out to be a lot further out in left field than I thought.
"Committed, lifelong, monogamous homosexual relationships" is, as I have stated, an artificial construct from the ELCA task force. It has no support in Scripture, or the Lutheran Confessions, including AC IV.
Again, I just don't know where you get this stuff. I literally shake my head in amazement.
You could very well be the heir to the thinking of Johann Agricola.
If I can remember to, I will bring up your definition of AC IV with both of the pastors at my new LCMS church. One is Concordia-St Louis educated and the other Concordia-Ft Wayne.
AC4 is the core of church
By alien language, I meant alien to us, not to Paul's readers.
Luther would have been great fun to have for this debate. If he did come back today, and suggest that the church had no business marrying people in the first place, how many anti-homosexual marriage folks would disagree with him?
I also think Paul knew exactly what AC4 was, because it was the hermeneutic, given by Christ on the road to Damascus, that he used to read Scripture. Paul's life is the perfect example of this. He persecuted the early Christians because they lived outside of God's Law and he saw it as his duty to bring them around. It is only his encounter with Christ where he is set straight. It is also largely from Paul's writings that Luther picked up this understanding of hermeneutics-- his "Augsburg Aha!". AC4 is used as the measuring stick throughout the Augsburg Confession and Apology-- it's Christ's death and resurrection alone and only, and those ramifications are far-reaching. Since you don't like AC4 as the definition that must be used for "beneficial" in Corinthians, how do you define that term? Beneficial in terms of what?
While the wording "committed, lifelong, monogamous homosexual relationships" is a fairly artificial construct, the reality is marriage, for which there is plenty of support both in Scripture and in the AC. Luther is very clear on 'better to get married and have sex withing marriage than to have sex outside of marriage' and contends that the enforced celibacy of priests leads them into sin. It's no different with homosexuals. Unless I misunderstood what you said, I think your own observations regarding the correlation between promiscuous behavior in homosexuals with how much they hate themselves for being homosexual are also consistent with calling homosexuality sinful/enforced celibacy of homosexuals being something that leads people away from, rather than to, Christ.
You keep saying that about leading people away...
Why stop there? That's just the top of the modern day list of reasons most people don't want to become Christians... Does the church have to reform itself for all the other reasons too?
#1: It is immoral to tell people they are sinners because of their sexuality.
-
#2: Christianity does not recognize the spirit of all living things as equal.
-
#3: Christianity does not recognize all gods and paths to Nirvana or paradise.
-
#4: Christian teaching requires that you believe that Jesus was really resurrected even though we know that’s scientifically impossible.
-
#5: Christianity holds to a stagnant man made (and heavily flawed) book, instead of growing and evolving as all living things should.
-
#6: Becoming a Christian is the last resort of those who need a crutch to get through life or are weak minded and want to look down upon others.
-
#7: Christianity ignores the innate sacredness that truth is relative, what’s true for you might not be true for me.
-
#8: Christianity propagates antiquated myths and fables of ignorant peoples and requires that we turn off our brains, such as blaming women for original sin and using it to keep women in a position of servitude.
-
#9: Christianity makes one become dependent and weak rather that self confident and in control of ones own self-determination.
-
#10: Christianity requires you put your faith and trust in someone that many scientists and archaeologists say never even existed.
Those are just some of the things our churches can change if we really want to become relevant to the modern society we live in. Once we get that old Christianity out of the way and reduce or eliminate the talk about Jesus being the only way and maybe git rid of that Bible book altogether... :Rollseyes:
Rather, we should preach what the Bible preaches, teach what Jesus taught and accept the fact that the world is going to hate us for not preaching what they want to hear.
Matthew 24:9-14
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
And look how many preachers are actually preaching that we can and should actually 'abandon' the Law for lawlessness and say we will be better off without it? Stunning coincidence isn't it?
comment
I was asked to leave as an interim from a congregation in Kansas because I spoke straight from the hip regarding the congregation's appalling lact of sensitivity to a mission venture which the congregations initially gave its blessing to! The congregational council accused me of spending too much time on this mission venture and finally asked me to leave! This is a sign that some congregations are more concerned about their own self-perpetuation than about witnessing to the fact that Christ indeed has been raised from the dead and what all that means for us who have been encountered by this Person over whom death no longer has dominion.
Anyway, now that I got that off my chest, it's time for everybody to repent again and again and again.
not membership but justification is at stake
I think you've misunderstood me. When I say it will 'keep people from Christ', I don't mean church membership is going to suffer or that it's going to hurt congregational growth. I mean it is a stumbling block one is putting before a fellow person. It impedes that faith through which we are justified. Matthew 18:23-35 is something we should all bear in mind in this discussion.
I also think you don't properly appreciate the magnitude of that passage you cited. For one, losing a vote is not persecution. Second, even if the ELCA were to start "persecuting" y'all (and note that everything from the Bp Hanson on down has been that they're taking extra pains to avoid any suggestion of persecution), there'd be a lot of ground to cover before the 'eye for an eye' rule was satisfied.
For another, we like to read these verses as though we're the ones who endure to the end. It's clear that's what we're supposed to do. Bad news for us is that we fail. Even (especially!) if you never change your stance on this issue, you are a part of the many who fall away and betray others, as am I.
Finally, I do agree that we should preach what the Bible preaches and teach what Christ taught. That's Law/Gospel theology, though, and a stance against allowing homosexuals to marry or allowing such people to preach is contrary to Christ's message, as recorded in the Bible.
David will also be thrilled to hear that AC4 comes to bear again with your long list, and in this case shows how those reasons are each inconsistent with the Gospel.
Not everyone that hears Christ can hear him
I quoted that verse for the multiple layers it covers, however, it was not presented because I think it indicates that the CWA vote represents persecution towards anyone. It's disappointing that you don't see deeper thoughts than that when that verse is read. But don't worry, I'm not losing any sleep over the idea the BP Hanson might try to persecute anyone, honestly, I have no idea where you get such alien and strange lines of thinking.
The NT has more than one location where church leadership qualifications and requirements are described, man of one wife etc., but it is self evident that you ignore all of them and instead try to invent a imaginary theological exogenesis use of Grace to justify your non-biblical conclusions. Instead of explaining how you are point for point wrong or mistaken, all I have to do is let scripture speak for itself and then you post how you think the scripture doesn’t mean what it says and or the scripture isn’t translated correctly etc., or because you don’t think words mean the writer meant to say…
_
1 Timothy 1:6-11
“Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.”
But please continue to tell us how the plain language of the scripture above somehow doesn’t really mean exactly what it says, but instead the Gnostic like secret truth has to be somehow revealed to us via some more muddled compositions of verses about different topics and or transpositions of other passages entirely unrelated to church leadership and God Approved Sexual Relationships, all of which will surely inform us that the verse above means the exact opposite of what actually says, I’m sure.
that's why we need to keep confessing
Is sex within marriage automatically a "desire of the flesh"? Also, if you really think homosexual marriage is such, we can test this*. Let's permit homosexual marriage, and see what the fruits of it are. Let's see if the number of homosexuals and their confessing and mission activities in the church increases or decreases. Let's see if publicly acknowledgement of their marriage relationships strengthens and uplifts those marriages. If homosexual relationships are inherently sinful, no good can possibly come of it.
Also, your point that the desired qualifications for church leadership includes 'man of no more than one wife' indicates that there were multiple modes of marriage available and practiced within the Christian community itself. It's no more of an indictment of polygamy than it is of being single.
Interestingly, I'd say that piece of Scripture you quoted upholds a view of the 3rd use of the Law more similar to mine as against some of the ones others have propounded here. It immediately speaks of the Law as being NOT applied to the just, who are defined as being 'in accordance with the gospel'. Also, the phrase "men who practice homosexuality" (women are ok?) is a mistranslation of arsenokoites again. In all honesty, though, we're condemned on the first couplet-- ungodly and sinners-- and we probably both suspect that the other is guilty of the last-- 'whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine'.
Your quote of Timothy is rather odd, too, since it
*and note that this isn't putting God to the test, but rather you and your understanding of Scripture.
Remember, after confessing we’re supposed to feel a desire to obey and be changed
Answer: It is if it’s an unlawful marriage. Like incest between Herod and his Brother’s wife or the Man with his Father’s wife…
Peter said: “Also, if you really think homosexual marriage is such, we can test this*. Let's permit homosexual marriage, and see what the fruits of it are… If homosexual relationships are inherently sinful, no good can possibly come of it.”
Answer: Sometimes a person catching cancer can cause them to reevaluate their lives and choices and their relationship with God, sometimes it can cause their family member and friend to do the same. Sometimes God can do great things through cancer and catastrophes. This doesn’t mean I’m going to say cancer is good and a blessing, the same as not having cancer, and neither should I willingly allow or go along with “let’s test this” and infect a few willing people with cancer to see what fruits come from it…
Peter said: “Also, your point that the desired qualifications for church leadership includes 'man of no more than one wife' indicates that there were multiple modes of marriage available and practiced within the Christian community itself. It's no more of an indictment of polygamy than it is of being single.”
Answer: It’s an indictment against all other marriages in Christian communities, or haven’t you heard, we Lutherans believe all Christians are called to live as our priests do, for we are all Priests in Christ, we are priests called to serve?
Peter said: “I'd say that piece of Scripture you quoted upholds a view of the 3rd use of the Law more similar to mine as against some of the ones others have propounded here. It immediately speaks of the Law as being NOT applied to the just, who are defined as being 'in accordance with the gospel'.”
Answer: what you’ve said here is called a non sequitur, but it’s been repeated so many times it’s expected instead of unexpected. Your conclussion doesn’t match the premise though, as you mentioned that you wanted to see what ‘good’ can come from something earlier, you can’t now turn around and say, only “Good” is a possible outcome of my actions so whatever I do it must be a “Good” thing. It is incorrect to to say I am saved so no matter what I do it must be a Good thing in accordance with he gospel because God said the good with live in accordance with the gospel… No, you have to test yourself against what the scripture teaches to see if you are staying true, examine your fruits, test the spirit. IF what you are doing is not in accordance with the scripture, than you’re not “just” you’re just forgiven.
Peter said: “Also, the phrase "men who practice homosexuality" (women are ok?) is a mistranslation of arsenokoites again.
Answer: “Arsenokoites" means, "to lie with a man." Formed by the association of two words present in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, Rabbis used "lie with a man," taken from the Hebrew text of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, to express the homosexual relationship. It wasn’t limited to pederasty or male prostitution. It refers to men having sexual with other men, i.e., homosexuals. Whereas Paul elsewhere speaks of men having passion for each other, he isn’t talking about prostitution or children or young men slaves. Each other, men for each other. But the idea that the mistranslated word is the arsenokoites one implies that the word homosexual correctly translated. Since the word homosexual is only just over a hundred years old, and it’s already being used as a modern translation of arsenokoites, it seems that there are plenty of people to disagree with you. If the word homosexual had been around since King James times, who’s to say if the KJV wouldn’t have used the word for the English translation?
comment
proceed together in their lives as sinners. There is not some general displacement of sin for some redeeming value with sexual intercourse being the determinative factor. One man and one woman within the God given arena (estate) of marriage....whether before the Fall or after. The difference is not the estate but the persons who occupy this estate. Sinners participate in marriage be they Christian, Jew or otherwise. A so-called Christian marriage (if marriage can be qualified that way)has to do with two people who have been baptized into Christ (through the valid sacrament of Holy Baptism) and in their faith arrange their lives according to the
Gospel, ie.God in Christ having encountered them already.
The estate of marriage does not include the union of same-sex partners.
"The Freedom Of A Christian"
I mean in explicit, black-and-white terms. Not inference, not implication, not grey area, not "it might be this way."
Oh, you said that Paul was writing in an "alien language." I am no Greek scholar, but I understand that Paul wrote in Koine Greek, which is the more street-level version of Greek. Luke and the writer of Hebrews (thought to be Luke or Apollos), both being very educated (Luke was a physician), wrote in very formal, very difficult Greek.
An analogue would be Hochdeutsch next to Pennsylvania Deitsch, or Oxford English next to Appalachian American, or perhaps "street" Australian, or Amsterdam Dutch next to Afrikaans.
Or, for that matter, my own Swiss-German next to the German of Luther's day. Even modern Germans sometimes think "whaaat?" when they hear Swiss-German.
Luke's dialect would be more "alien" than Paul.
Caricature
wasn't meant that way
Someday maybe I'll write up what I said. I have it on some scraps of paper somewhere. You may remember that I spoke of a little child whom I had baptized the year before and who had died last Holy Week. I was talking pretty concretely about real people.
Now I've gotta go. Be back in a few days.
Yours in Christ,
John
Not the issue
I appreciate your clarification. I agree that we ought to be very careful in judging or condemning those in same sex relationships. If the question before the assembly had been, "Shall the ELCA pass judgement on condemn those in same sex relationships," I would agree with you. However, that was not the question before the assembly. The question was, "Shall the ELCA bless those in same sex relationships and declare their behavior to be God pleasing?" That is a different question. My own answer is that however much I might like to bless same sex relationships, I can find nothing in Scripture that commands or authorizes me to do so. Therefore, while I will refrain from passing judgment or condemning, I will not publicy bless that which God does not bless in his Word.
David
not quite the issue either, I think
Very briefly, I want to say again that actually, at that point at the CWA we were in a plenary open discussion on the social statement and not narrowly discussing the policy question you reference. In its context, I believe my statement was appropriate.
Moreover, I would suggest that when the discussion turned more specifically to the ministry policies (which, as said, was not when I spoke the words you recalled) the question was not actually, and should not have been thought to be, "Shall the ELCA bless those in same sex relationships and declare their behavior to be God pleasing?" The ELCA is a community where no one position is held on that score and strictly speaking "the ELCA" does not as a national church body or in its full communal expression bless couples. Yes, I know one can speak of the ministry of pastors, members, and local communities as acts of the whole body, but on that principle the ELCA *also* continues to be a church that in most instances speaks no to the blessing of same-gender relationships.
The question, as I would understand it, was rather whether this church can and will live with its strongly felt diversity of theological and ethical convictions on this issue in such a way that its policies will make room also for those in the minority. You are not, and will not be, compelled by this action to bless where you believe such blessing is not of God. But is it possible for us to coexist in this one church—as indeed we have been coexisting, not only in disagreement but also in shared fellowship and mission—even as we disagree in good conscience on this issue? And if we could disagree and yet coexist as long as one position determined our policy, can we now coexist when policies will permit also those who take the other side—congregations as well as pastors—the exercise of their position? Will those who are right on this, whichever side you deem that to be, deem themselves too tainted by association with those who are not. Is this entailed inconsistency and compromise, marked also by the reciprocal respect of each for the bound conscience of the other, utterly unacceptable and impossible?
Some certainly think it unthinkable, but if enough of us do manage it I think we will not only be preserving a precious and holy bond of fellowship in Christ, but also teach others something really powerful about this fine confessional tradition that's different from the kind of fractious Christianity that has given Christians a bad name.
Peace,
John
Jesus said ...
"a house divided against itself"
There are ironies in this as far as the Gospel narrative goes: before long it will be Jesus who is the one bound, and it may well be that the exorcisms and healings that Jesus performed were not only necessary expressions of Jesus’ compassion and sign s of the Kingdom but also pyrrhic victories, intended by Satan and his demons to distract people from Jesus’ original mission, to exhaust him, and to draw him inexorably to his failure and death. But that irony lies in the background as Jesus argues with the authorities here.
When you quote these words, I think, as I hope you do, of the question raised: what divisions require the abandonment of the shared house? Certainly not every disagreement, even insoluble conflicts, are grounds for the breaking of bonds of covenant. Surely we do not advocate divorce whenever there is disagreement in a marriage, and there are significant conflicts between couples with which they learn to live and through which they continue to love. So just what is entailed by this saying of Jesus becomes a more complicated challenge of wisdom and discernment than it may first appear.
The words of Jesus here are of course well known for a reason beyond Jesus’ use of them: Lincoln quoted them in regard to the house of our nation. The division to which he referred, you recall, involved the sin of slavery. That abomination was indeed grievous, an obscenity that at the time some, indeed many, did not recognize as obscene. Interestingly, in regard to Lincoln, the man who quoted those words from Mark 3 would deem the Union so tragically precious that he accepted, even himself ordered, the shedding of blood for its preservation.
John
Meaning of Natural
When Paul speaks of exchanging the natural use for the unnatural use, it seems to be that he was speaking of "natural" in the same sense as Aristotle--that was how educated persons defined "natural" in the ancient world. With that in mind, it is difficult for me to accept the notion that Paul was not unequivocally condemning all forms of homosexual conduct. The idea that a use is "natural" because a person desires to do it would have been entirely foreign to an educated person in Paul's time and place.
Natural and unnatural in Romans 1
The pont where my argument then goes a bit differently than yours is in thinking about just what is meant by that ideal, what is the "nature" that is at stake. Like most moderns, our first thought, indeed our assumption, is that Paul was primarily thinking of the ideal in terms of sexual dimorphism and what today we speak of as "heterosexuality" in the direction or orientation of desire. My reading of both Greek and rabbinic sources, however, has taken me to another, less modern, viewpoint: that the ideal in question has to do with the virtues of moderation, self-control, continence, etc. Both the Greek physis and the Hebrew yetzer hatov carry this emphasis. The "unnatural," or "the evil nature" in Judaic thought, was immoderate, ravenous, out-of-control, a dishonoring of the ideal.
This does not deny that Paul saw pagan same-sex sexual behavior as repugnant. (He would have been a pretty strange Pharisee if he didn't.) But it is to suggest that he saw it as "unnatural" not as the root issue of "orientation" but rather as incontinent, unbridled, ravenous lust, a seeking for kicks and sensations, an abandonment of God and thus by God. In that way of seeing the issue, the burning lust seen in licentious gay and lesbian sexuality is for Paul a prime illustration of sexuality that has jumped its proper tracks to become mere selfish sensuality. That is an image of horror, and is used as such within Paul's argument, but note that it suggests something different from what is often heard. It suggests that what is pictured here, what Paul described in pagan sexual practice, was an image and example of where we end up when our lusts, impulses, and appetites are untethered and become our rulers, carrying us away. What Paul speaks of here is for him indeed a sign and symptom of the denial and betrayal of our nature. This is the shame toward which we spin when we lose our rightful, our "natural," control and balance. That's an understandable and cogent argument, but it's a bit different from the notion that Paul is here fundamentally concerned with what we today have come to call "sexual orientation." Paul certainly describes such desires as "unnatural" but he does so in a way that places what he is describing within a single continuum or trajectory for human sexuality, not on one side of a bifurcation. Lose our grounding and limits, our proper continence, our rational and spiritual human nature, and this is where we will end up, in a frantic quest for pleasure and experience that dishonors our bodies and loses our souls.
The point Paul is making is an important one, especially as it is a point made for the sake of his larger argument. But it (a) is not quite the point most moderns make from the reading of these words, and (b) does not, as I said before, necessarily construct for us an explanation of any and all same-sex desire. Romans 1 was not written as, and should not be read as, a comprehensive anthropological, psychological, or theological treatise on "homosexuality." It is an argument for the Gospel and for the urgency of right connection to God for both Jews and gentiles. To read it as the former risks losing sight of the latter. The horror of the fevered incontinence it describes, a common Jewish reaction to paganism, after all, is not exclusively present in homoerotic licentiousness: it can also be found in heterosexual forms. Moreover, the topic here is not the less lurid, perhaps more boring one, of same-sex relationships that don't seem to fall into the same pattern and dysfunction that Paul describes, that have approximately the same level of continence and attention to fidelity and respect as the heterosexual ones. I'm not saying that Paul imagined such a phenomenon (I don't at all imagine he did), and I'm not insisting that you have to believe in its existence. I *am* saying that if such relationships exist, as many of us believe they do, there is nothing in Paul's argument that need declare them "unnatural."
Now there is a complexifying further point in this, namely the way in which concepts of proper power-relations were also classically at stake in the distinction between natural and unnatural. A fully sophisticated discussion of Paul's meaning here would have to take up the matter of gender and dominance or submission. An important and fascinating topic, but also one fraught with so many further difficulties that I think we have to lay it aside for the moment.
Yours in Christ,
John
~
Or lets try this, lets say we exchange what you wrote about same sex relationships and insert incestuous relationships like 1 Corinthians 5:1 in it's place? Your argument is not changed or altered, that's what happens, we now justify son's marrying their Father's wives.
The argument that "Paul said negative things about so-and-so's sexuality is because he didn't see that they 'have approximately the same level of continence and attention to fidelity and respect as'" good marriages do, is speculation at best. You immediately follow that with, "I'm not saying that Paul imagined such a phenomenon (I don't at all imagine he did)," Well of course you don't imagine it, you can't "imagine" that because if Paul is capable of teaching us modern people anything is this regard, even with our modern concepts of sexuality and sexual preferences and sexual orientations etc., when Paul is a rube, a hick by default of being born when and where he was born and not being exposed to 'good' samples of same-sex couples like we are (or good incestuous couples for that matter), or good whatever loving sexuality will be recognized tomorrow, then your thesis is proven to be erroneous. And the position you present is flawed now because we are forced to 'assume' that Paul doesn't agree with you because he didn't know better.
The possibility that he knew the full spectrum of sexual relationship possibilities and still disapproved of those that went beyond what he did endorsed and blessed, would shatter your entire position.
Try as people might to pretend that Paul was either a) not talking about loving homosexual couples, b) not talking about adult same-sex couples or willing same-sex couples, c) not talking about same-gender sexual orientation as 'normal' for some people, is ALL arrogance and presumption on our part because we don't want to live with the concept that he meant what he said when he said: [homosexuals] "were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men". It is descriptive of ALL of the possible same-sex relationship you've discussed, their reasons and your justifications for their 'passion' is irrelevant, Paul says it's bad to participate in it and his description is as accurate today as it was then.
Paul a rube?
I don’t know what it is about this on-line community that folks seem so eager not only to disparage but to put ascribe disparagement to those who differ from them.
Ever since I became developmentally capable of it I have esteemed Saint Paul and have sought to honor his teaching and steward his heritage. Beyond giving heed to his words and attending to the inspiration there—inspiration intended not for abstracted arguments but, as in II Timothy 3:16, as a tool for the holy work and living address of teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness—I have come over the years and decades of my life and ministry not just to love Paul not only for his teaching but for his humanity, not only for the wisdom but for the strengths and the weaknesses, the interplay of his certainty and humility, the tremendous insights of one who knew the danger of being blind to one’s blindness.
So, since I love my brother and father in Christ Paul, can you imagine how distasteful it is to read such words as you use to describe my purported attitude to him? The words are stupid and vile and ones I have never uttered or thought. I understand that you may believe that such are my thoughts, but putting such insults into my mouth insults me.
A more responsible way of thinking would be to wonder—yes, genuinely wonder—and ask how it might be that someone could think himself or herself faithful and attentive in reading the apostle and yet not believe that Paul’s words are definitive of the issue at hand in the same manner that you are sure that they are. That question might lead us to a conversation about differing hermeneutics, about how or whether a text’s “meaning” is always and only what it meant or was understood to mean, and, if some distinction should arise, how or whether God’s people can still treasure the text aright. I don’t have time for that conversation now, and it would be a difficult oneboth because it’s richly complicated theological ground (not least for us Lutherans) and because it’s easy to misunderstand one another simplistically when we talk about it. So here I just want to say that among the several characterizations of my thinking in which I have been unable to recognize anything familiar to myself, this one seemed particularly hurtful.
Despite my irritation, however, or perhaps because of it, I remind myself that I remain yours in Christ,
John
An addendum
Oh, I’d almost forgotten since I’d read your post a few busy days ago: your accusation (unfair, in my insufficiently humble opinion) that I interpret scripture simply on the basis of what I want it to say set me in turn to wondering. Can you tell me, honestly, brother to brother: do you *want* the scriptures to mean what you understand them to?
I understand that both of us accord an authority to scripture that overrides our mere personal desires and prejudices; both of us believe that the will of God takes precedence over our own. So the question I am asking is neither whether you feel yourself bound to the word of God as you understand nor whether if somehow, as if by some miraculous word from heaven, you discovered your interpretation mistaken (I know this scenario is almost unimaginable) you would be not just a bit embarrassed but disappointed or angry or resentful. Do you have an emotional stake in this? Or is this just the dispassionate calculation and then defense and promotion of divine will. Is there any sense of tragic necessity or regret in the human implications of being right about this, any twinge of wishing it were otherwise, or does it just seem utterly good to be right?
If I had what seemed a divine revelation or a conversive discovery that convinced me that I was mistaken in this, I would accede to it and abide by it, but I do know, and confess without shame, that it would be a sad thing for me to speak condemnation upon the lives and souls of people I have come to know, respect, and love for so much good in their minds and hearts. I suppose I would then think that all that good did not remove or excuse the evil in their sexual desire and/or expression, but there would still be sadness. How would it be for you, mutatis mutandis, if the proverbial shoe were on the other, i.e. your, foot?
I know that speaking of feelings here invites accusations that one is merely thinking out of or arguing from emotion. That’s not what I want to do. But I do want to understand, and I do think that it would be helpful to know what’s at stake emotionally here, what are people feeling when they talk about this. Some of us seem to feel things very differently, repugnances and hopes and angers and fears, in ways that others don’t. And I suppose we have a tendency to assume that God’s heart, indeed, put it biblically, his gut, is moved in much the same way as our own.
So maybe we should talk more about the feelings that accompany our thoughts, just for the sake of better understanding.
Just a thought.
John
Not talking about you, talking about your position
I’ve reread all your words on this forum topic, the reason I’m replying again now is because of your question about “how do I feel about it”.
I would that Scripture is read plainly, first and foremost. Then the scripture should examined against itself and especially so when one passage of scripture seems to run contrary to other parts of scripture. I would that when we read Scripture we recognize that we are not the arbiters of truth, we should not come between those that are condemned by the words and the words themselves, if that be us or others as the case may be. The Law will condemn us, all of us, it is not for us to turn around and tell our neighbors, oh don’t worry about that, it’s ignored these days. Unless the reason a rule or command is done away with is the updated scripture itself, like the OT rules being overruled by the NT scriptures, only then are we justified in its changes. We need to leave the condemning words in there and preach them, not pretend that they are outdated or obsolete. As if God can be outdate or obsolete, as if Salvation through the blood of Christ can be reorganized into something more palatable for modern sensibilities. I feel that too many people feel justified and or vindicated in their dismissing of the plain language of scripture because they have confidence in ‘experts’ who tell them that they can dismiss that plain language, they then have confidence in the experts, not the scripture.
IF Paul was not talking about homosexual sexual relations, but only idolatry, then he shouldn’t have talked about homosexual sexual actions then. IF Jesus was not talking about God’s intention for Marriage as the only Christ approved method of marriage, when he described the intentions of the creator whom made them male and female, then he should not have said so in the topic of marriage and divorce. He ‘should’ have mentioned that any two people can marry each other if they really love each other enough, if that’s what he meant. But he did not say anything of the kind. Rather than being more lax than Moses in following the Law, Jesus is just a likely to be more strict in the enforcement of the Law, such as lust in the heart being already guilty of sexual immorality, and hate for neighbor being already guilty of murder. Jesus doesn’t ‘let us off the hook’ just because he’s here to forgive us and redeem us, he tells us how utterly and completely we are falling short of the objective. Regardless if we like it or not we need to keep reminding ourselves of it for the simple fact that Jesus kept reminding us of it, for his reasons, even if we don’t understand why.
When given specific incidents of our desires and behaviors, everybody from time to time feels wrongly accused or wrongly condemned when the commands of Jesus are applied against us, we feel misunderstood or ‘not that bad’, its natural to feel that it’s all simply not fair, but in the end none of those feelings or objections make us innocent of the charge (s). Such as the rich young man who clearly and earnestly and with every good intention conceivable to man, applied at the door of Jesus for personal justification, asking, what more can he do? And when Jesus told him that he could give up what he had, he was dejected and downcast, denied and left unsatisfied. This is EXACTLY what you are describing with your homosexual couples who yearn to please God and serve the Lord, they want to feel justification and vindication but they fall short, the same as the rich young man did and EVERYONE else too. None of us will achieve a satisfactory condition on our own, its Jesus way through himself and the cross or its nothing. Fidelity in a marriage does not make a prohibited marriage a justified marriage, nor does love between two people overcome the sexual immorality of their actions. Love and desire does not make one holy, as Jesus said in Luke 6:32: “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.” And as such, the love two people have for each other does not justify nor vindicate their sexual encounters with each other, no matter how much they ‘feel’ they love each other and were made that way. We do wrong to tell them that it’s okay, go ahead, don’t worry about it, we’re all sinners anyway, when Jesus NEVER talked like that, ever.
As to you feeling I was vile and stupid when I summarized your personal feelings on the matter of interpreting Paul, I was wasn’t talking about your personal feelings about Paul at all. I don’t know you so how could I have any idea how you feel about Paul? My words were an attack on your position in this debate, your argument and how it is presented here is my only concern, it is your position that Paul’s words are wrong or we should dismiss them etc., your position is validated IF those things I summarized of your position are convincing arguments or taken to be true. I do not find your position convincing because your position, as presented in this forum, requires that a person comes to those conclusions I outlined above. You seem to take particular insult to the idea that I said your position requires that we take Paul to be a “rube”, whereas a rube is a person who is “ignorant and or naïve”. I contend that your argument has clearly established that Paul must be is both ignorant and or naïve about human sexuality by modern standards. I disagree with your conclusion and I disagree that I wrongly summarized your argument in the way I did.
IF you have a different reasons than “Paul didn’t know better” (for one reason or another) for Paul coming to the wrong conclusion about homosexuality as you have presented the argument here, then have at it, I can’t find that other argument you alluded to anywhere in this topic. In the meantime I think we are left with no other option than to think both Jesus and Paul knew exactly what they were talking about when they said what they said about marriage (Creator intended Male and Female marriages) and the proper place for sexual relationships and even sexual lust/fantasies (inside the institution of male to female Marriage), every other sexual relationship is sexual immorality and/or idolatry of the human creature even if that creature is none other than our individual selves.
in partial response
Well yes, I did realize that you weren’t speaking personally to me when you characterized my thinking as you did. I am not always as dumb as I may sometimes seem, and I did grasp what it was that you were trying to say. Indeed, perhaps my outrage and anger was a bit overplayed, for I had not taken your words quite as personally as I indicated. Were I that thin-skinned I probably wouldn’t have lasted more than one iteration of this discussion. And you needn’t have gone over your argument once again in response. I had gotten it the first time.
(And no, I didn't say that you were vile or stupid, just that I found those words put into my mouth as a characterization of my argument offensive in that way. Sound like you're illustrating here something quite similar to what you thought I was doing, confusing words about an argument to be words about a person.)
But the reason I allowed myself to express rather than just transcend my sense of insult was my hope that you might thereby be moved to consider that the way that I read and interpret Paul is not (at least subjectively and conscientiously) as either cavalier or intentionally distortive as you have described it. It should be evident that we have some hermeneutical differences here. I have lived all my adult life with a love of the scriptures which includes a recognition that the truth they speak is not always the same as it was once thought. I’ve referenced Luther’s experience on that score, but there are many other examples that come to mind. This doesn’t make the Bible false but it does call for another way of attending to its meaning than the one you seem to be insisting on. I certainly think one can be a “bible-believer” and not believe that Psalm 19 requires thinking either that the sun literally travels a daily circuit above the earth *or* that the Psalmist knew that it didn’t. I believe one can be a faithful reader of the scriptures and not believe that “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons,” even though Titus 1:13 explicitly declares it true. I believe one can be devoted to the authority of God’s Word and not think that long hair is a disgrace upon a man but a glory for a woman, and, incidentally I think one can humbly attend to the instruction of the inspired apostle and yet not insist that we are to permit no woman to teach, or have authority over men, or speak in the assembly, letting her instead look to being saved by their childbearing, provided she continues in faith, love, holiness, and with modesty. (I Timothy 2:12, 15.) And yet there is no verse that explicitly or countermands the literal appropriation of these texts. By your argument, it seems to me there ought to be, unless you do in fact so appropriate them.
I could cite more texts, but I figure that’s unnecessary in addition to being tiresome. My point is simply to say that it would be more helpful to converse respectfully about the hermeneutical differences between us rather than resorting yet another allegation that you believe the Word and I don’t. Otherwise we just continue in the reinforced conviction of our rightness. But of course, as has been pointed out, a problem with many of us Christians is that “we’d rather be right than forgiven.” I do not exempt myself from that charge.
In Christ,
John
and on the question about your feelings...
As to my request for your feelings on this matter, it seems to me that you’ve provided me instead with your *thoughts* and with a reiteration of your argument. I get that. I was wondering how you felt about it, assuming that you’re right, and also how you think you’d feel about it if you turned out to be mistaken.
You may recall the strong words of Oliver Cromwell "I beseech ye in the bowels of Christ, think that ye may be mistaken.” A good challenge to all of us, but then again Cromwell was of course addressing his foe, not himself. :-)
It was interesting to me some years ago to discover how many people felt a dissonance between thought and feeling, or Christianity and Christ, or doctrine and moral instinct—there are lots of ways to describe it, on the issue at hand. They did indeed, at least to some extent, want it to be other than the way they thought the church and the bible seemed to demand that it had to be. They regretted what seemed ostracism and exclusion but believed it necessary to their faith. And then of course there were lots of others who seemed to hear no dissonance at all.
My question came out of my curiosity about that phenomenon and my desire to understand you better as a human being and fellow sinner. I shouldn’t have to say yet again that I wasn’t proposing an argument from mere sentiment. It’s just that I wonder: if I have a feeling as well as a conviction about this, if I, quite viscerally don’t want people I know and love to be treated the way the way they have been on the sole criterion of their orientation or love, do you feel in some similar way a *desire* that they should be, or a sense of fear or disgust at the prospect that they might be, or what? Or nothing, other than your sense of obedience to the Word as you interpret it? Do you know people who have grown up gay or lesbian in your church? Do you have people you love who have struggled, or are still struggling, with this more intimately than most of us have had to? Or is it that, loving the Church and its people, you want to protect it from the presence of such struggles?
I write these questions, awkwardly worded and perhaps off-base as they might seem, not as argument, but just because I hope you can help me understand you as a brother in Christ.
John
Feelings
- It is no different for other people and other types of sin, like divorcees and polygamists. A married new convert Christian may find themselves attached to a sinful living non-Christian who isn’t happy about their spouses new found religion and new found moral principles, the new Christian now refusing to participate in behaviors they may have themselves introduced to their spouse years before but now their spouse doesn’t want to forfeit, creating heartache all around and more heartache than if the had never been married in a sinful relationship in the first place . A Muslim or Mormon fundamentalist converts and finds Christ and then realizes he already has 2 wives and he can’t abandon either of them, shirking his preexisting promises and responsibilities, but also knowing that he can never achieve the objectives put forth in scripture for having only one wife and having the kind of relationship with one wife that he is directed to have and nurture, and the wives feel that their spouse has abandoned the promises he made at their weddings and they are harmed too. Everyone involved is worse off than if they had never married more than one spouse in the first place. Illegitimate marriages create burdens for new Christians, it harms their ability to accept and hear the calling of the Spirit, it harms and creates burdensome responsibilities that might have been accepted during a sinful condition but promises they remain all the same. A Christian would have been better off avoiding those marriages in the first place and homosexual marriages are the same as those above. They create burdens and responsibilities that cannot be easily undone when a person accepts the Lords scripture as guidance for their lives and their personal relationships with Jesus and the Holy Spirit and ultimately God.
- A drug addict can convert and accept the Lord in a single day, an hour, a moment even, but their previous condition is not erased, their addiction remains and they remain accountable for all the things they did before they were converted. The price they pay is not reduced for their new found desire to become good Christians, as they go to prison or through drug withdrawal and rehabilitation etc., or try to repair shattered lives of their loved ones and family members etc., it would have been better if they never took drugs in the first place, so we (Christians) won’t look the other way or legalize illicit and harmful substances willingly for the rest of society if we can help it.
- None of those conditions, marriage in sin (open marriages, spouse sharing, orgies or excessive drinking and partying etc.,) or polygamous converts from other religions, drug or substance abusers/uses, or homosexual sexual immorality marriages/relationships, might not damn the participants to hell, all these people can be saved after all, no differently than the weekly pew sitters can be saved, but those conditions don’t help, they hurt, they hurt more people, they are hard to undo, they make converting to Christianity harder, not easier, we should do our best to help society avoid being in those conditions so that they can more easily answer the call when the Lord knocks.
- I feel pain that parts of the Church go around boorishly trying to enable more of these behaviors that the Lord will have to undo later. I’m saddened that the pain is doubled and quadrupled by well meaning but mistaken brothers and sisters in Christ, who try to calm the fears of the sinner with false platitudes, treating people with mortal wounds as if they are nothing more than a crying child with a bruised knee. These conditions require surgery and the expert attention of Christ himself, not a kiss on their boo-boo and told that all will be well. I am saddened like a witness is to see a person enter a long term treatment or rehabilitation plan, hoping for success and praying that the Lord reduces their pain as much as possible so that they can endure through it, but knowing also happiness that the trip down the road of recovery has begun for them as well. That is how I feel when the scripture is preached as it is written.
- People are people, as Christians we are all one in Christ, not male nor female, not rich nor poor. We are not a-sexual, bi-sexual, heterosexual or homosexual, we are however sexual. We are individuals with individual souls that require Christ’s attention and Mercy and Grace. We are not defined by what type of physical contact we desire or genitalia we fantasize about, and we shouldn’t allow the flesh to dictate to us what we are or who we will follow (Christ), following the desire of the flesh will not lead us closer to Christ if we don’t allow Christ to direct us on how we need to direct that energy. Physical sexuality has a Christ approved outlet, and it is a blessing, everything else is following the flesh. Galatians 5:17: “For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.”
Theology of Blessing
If the prophets, evangelists, and apostles had recorded no word from God establishing, affirming, or otherwise sanctifying marriage (between men and women, just to be clear), would the church still bless it? Should the church still bless it? I've got a neighbor-pastor who blesses backpacks for the little kids and Harley Davidsons for the big kids each year. It's cute, but I'm not sure why he attaches God's Word to backpacks and motorcycles, or what Word from God he really even attaches. My wife appears to have the touch of death for vacuum cleaners, so maybe I should take our new one to him . . . . The point being, I'm not sure that it is enough to say "Scripture doesn't say don't do it" for the Church in its public life actually to bless something. What does it mean for the church to say, "God bless you" or "these thy gifts"? Why do we say it?
When it comes to erotic behavior between men and women(I don't use sexual in this context, as I'm not convinced it is sex), we are speaking about so much more than feelings of love or personal commitments. We are speaking about how the body is used. When all foods were declared clean and the foreskin deemed "okay to keep," it was based not only on the Gospel, but on what the Gospel made possible: an embrace of creation as God had made and ordered it. I do not find any divine Word allowing me to view homoerotic activity as created or ordered by God, and all divine Words that do address such activity censure it. Pr. Stendahl addresses those latter censures, but does not address the former concern: the theology of blessing. I have always believed the church's blessing to be based on a positive Word, and not the absence of a negative one.
Blessing
blessing
The Hebrew sense of blessing is practically one of geography. The Bible translations of 'blessed are you' as 'you are happy' are off-base. The more clear understanding would be 'you are in the right place in your relationship with God'. The only Word that brings blessing is Christ in His death and resurrection. In that sense, blessing inanimate objects is not appropriate. Even blessing marriage ceremonies is a little questionable, since the marriage itself cannot bring one closer to or further away from God. I think there is a lot a pastor can say about how the Gospel crosses the new couple's life together and that the church community's witness and support of the marriage is a good thing.
If you want Scriptural support for homosexuality as God's good creation, and the Creation accoun't isn't enough, consider Matthew 7:18. And on the subject of fruit, consider Galatians 5:22-23. Many homosexual marriages bear exactly that fruit.
The Good, the Bad, and the . . . .
As for Galatians 5, there is no doubt in my mind that love and friendship between two men or two women may be adorned with such fruit. That the physical bedroom behavior between gays and lesbians has a connection with this fruit is less convincing. And, just to be clear, I would not use either of these verses in asserting the goodness of marriage and its sex, or at least not as a part of a much larger argument.
Your side reference to the Creation account needs more explication and connection to homoerotic behavior to be convincing. Man is born tending away from God, but that is by no means good. Thus we might suspect that a great many inborn tendencies should be held in suspicion until clarified in the Light of day.
It is true that marriage will not bring you closer to God in the sense that it will not bestow the forgiveness of sins won by Christ crucified and risen--it will not, by the mere performance of it, bring you closer to God's good favor. But why narrow the crucified and risen Lord's work to justification? Why narrow *blessing* to justification? How is it that He would have given up His affirmation of marriage between men and women in this present, created order that He continually upholds?
I'm sure you have something to back up your definition of blessing as a flat declaration that someone is in right relationship with God. What is it? How does it take into account 1) God's promise to "bless" the land and crops of Israel, as it is often placed in Deuteronomy; 2) God being blessed by Israel, and 3) the use of "bless" in the subjunctive ("May God bless you . . . ."). Are they all baruch, or is there another word, or what? And what are we saying when we say, "Bless us and these thy gifts" with reference to food (in the catechism)? Should we not be saying that?
I still have no Word that God created, commanded, or ordered the mutual genital contact of same-gendered persons. But I do have several for the mutual genital contact of men and women. You seem to be arguing for the use of a word that I don't have, while questioning the use of a word that I do have. Explain.
Clarification
God's good creation
"and it WAS good..." is BEFORE the fall. Is this some new version of Genesis?
some notes to a friend about "blessings"
I would still like to address this matter in a bit more focused and careful way than I have time for at the moment, and some of what has passed between the three of you so far has me wanting to comment as well, but if something of value could be found in a less careful note, I can offer here the following words of reflection I wrote to a young colleague some months ago. I don’t even quite remember what I said and haven’t even got the time to reread it carefully, but I do recall that this part of my note to him talked about the question of blessings.
----------------
... There are several questions that need addressing. A good one to start with is what we do when we "bless" something, in this case a relationship and a covenant.
A big part of what we do as a church is related to what Judaism knows as the consecration of the creation, the making holy of that which is holy, recognizing the presence of the sacred, giving thanks for it, praying for it, asking God's blessing upon it. We bless the Blessed One for the blessing that we in turn bless. Food, drink, homes for shelter and dwelling, births, evenings and mornings, works of justice, spaces and objects for worship, tools for service, occasions of commitment: in all these and more we call attention and pay attention and give thanks and pray. For us as Christians this has particularly to do with what we call the Kingdom of God. When we bless we are saying that this part of the creation is also of the Kingdom. God is here and we are noticing. Our blessing may then also be a consecration to a purpose: it says that this is meant not simply for itself but for the revelation and service of the Kingdom. (So we say, for example, "Bless these gifts to our use, and our lives to your service.")
Such acts of blessing may be the prayers and exclamations of individual Christians or in the context of households or of assemblies of friends but some are also the public acts of the church and done on behalf of the larger community of faith. We as pastors serve and represent that community in the rites where blessing takes place.
That seems pretty straightforward to me. When we bless a "marriage" — the word will need further discussion before we're done, but I'll tackle that in a later note — at a wedding, what we usually mean, or what I think we should mean, is that here we have something worthy of such prayer. We pray blessing for the individuals as they enter into this covenant, we pray blessing for them together, and we pray blessing for that relationship which is their partnership and faithfulness unto death. Such prayer recognizes and also invokes the presence of the holy. We do not, of course, "marry" them, though we do stand as witnesses on behalf of the larger civil community as the individuals make their vows and so join themselves to one another as husband and wife. Sometimes that marrying has taken place already before the church ceremony and we do the "blessing of a civil marriage," a rite that looks externally much the same as a regular wedding and so reminds us that this act of nuptial blessing is in every case an act of prayer for couples whose marriage is created not by our blessing but by the public exchange of heir vows. When people make such vows and ask for our presence and our prayers, the request is that their publicly witnessed and attested vows to each other, the bare essential for civil marriage, be accompanied with such prayer of blessing, and so also with reference to the divine dimensions and resonances of the promises they make. They are also sometimes asking, I think, to know and be assured that what they do then is not just a legal civil act but a commitment honored by a community inclusive of but greater than a circle of family and friends.
This is good Lutheran teaching, by the way, for we stand in a "Two Kingdoms" tradition that speaks of the meaning of marriage sacramentally but does not regard marriage as a Sacrament. Marriage belongs to the civil world, the creation, that imperfect world of life and death in which we are to bless and find blessing but in which we do not put our ultimate faith and hope.
The main point I want to make here, though, is that while the ministry of prayer and blessing is profoundly important and we are called to exercise it responsibly and with care, the act of blessing should not be confused with an authoritative statement on everything involved. Thus we may know that there are flaws and dangers in a relationship between a man and a woman (to a greater or lesser extent there usually are) and yet still see enough reason to bless them and pray for their future together when they enter into a covenant of marriage. It is an act of prayer and a celebration of whatever is of the Kingdom in their love and hope and promise of faithfulness, not an absolute global affirmation of everything about them. And it isn't, or certainly needn't be an ideological or theological statement about the Institution of Marriage, or the Meaning of Holy Matrimony, or what is required to be worthy of the Church's prayer. Good and bad are often mixed in with each other, but when there is good that is seen we may bless and give thanks for it, and speak words of counsel for its preservation and nurture and words of warning against what may destroy it, and words of prayer for the lives involved and for the world in which they will be lived.
So let's try not to over-ideologize the matter. If blessing is asked for and if there is something to bless, then is it not what we do, even if we may not understand or approve of everything in the situation? When people love each other and choose faithfulness and commitment, when they say no to shame and promiscuity, when they dare to say that they will keep faith with each other, I think it's probably OK to be glad for them and to pray that they will succeed.
I think this is a good place to start. But of course this also leaves out a lot of questions we still need to look at, questions that may affect our ability to speak the kind of blessing we are being asked for. So in two or three future notes I'll try to address those. One has to do with what hangs up many people, the definition of "Marriage," and another has to do with sin and the question of whether same-sex relations are in fact sin and abomination. As we move to those questions we need to look more carefully at Scripture, and I promise to do that in our further correspondence...
If There Is Something to Bless
Therein lies the question, as you acknowledge. Is there something to bless here? It strikes me that the Church has no blessing to grant save the blessing that God has given first. Has God given His blessing to the mutual genital contact of two men or two women? Has He given His blessing to what goes by the term, "anal sex"? I understand that no gay or lesbian relationship can be boiled down to that act, but also I believe such physical activity is generally held as a possible, acceptable, and perhaps constitutive element of same-gendered unions. To extend the Lord's blessing (and if it's not the Lord's blessing, why bother with it?) to such activity requires a good basis for trusting, however partially, that the Lord indeed blesses it and makes His face to shine upon it.
Also, I think we need to remember that the term "commitment" covers a range of attachments and loyalties, and that every commitment has a particular content, or perhaps we should say, intent. To what are two women in a same-gendered union committing themselves? The fact that we describe it specifically as a "same-gendered" union, and not a like-minded or one-hearted union, once again draws attention to the physicality of the relationship as well as its more affective or rational dimensions. Is this a commitment that the Lord blesses and to which He shows His favor?
The older liturgies for marriage refer to it as a union of heart, body, and mind. Does that describe this union also? If so, then questions about the Lord's esteem of this union's physical elements come justly into play. If not--if the same-gendered unions of which we are speaking include no physical or erotic dimension--then I guess we're just talking about friendship, or something like it. In fact, many have argued, I think convincingly, that same-gendered unions are, in fact, not a corruption of marriage (as they have nothing, ultimately, to do with marriage) but of friendship, introducing eros to what should be defined by philia and agape.
To raise these questions is not to cast blessing as an "authoritative statement on everything involved," but is rather to insist that our blessings have a theology behind them--a Word authored by God, or if you prefer, a clearly-founded word about God authored from the Word of God. And certainly, when the Church extends a blessing to something in the name of the Lord, an authoritative theological statement is inferred by those present, whether desired or not, and that inference is straightforward: "God approves this," or, "These people say God approves this." To deny this dimension of the communication-act is not very plausible to me.
I do believe God approves marriage, and not because the people entering into it have good intents. Even where they do have good intents or commitments or whatever, he does not approve marriage for this reason. God approves, confirms, sanctifies, blesses, delights in, favors, etc., marriage because it is His own handiwork and gift. Not every attempt at wearing this gift looks very pretty, and perhaps some folks should have left the gift in the box, but the gift is still good nonetheless, for God's sake. I don't know why I would say so about a same-gendered union.
Finally, I would caution against using the term "ideological" too much in these debates, at least without explaining in a very clear fashion what is the cause and intent of such labeling.
comment
Sure
comment
The patriarch Abraham was blessed with wealth in certain terms. But his blessing was not permanent. He lost it when he died. Blessings aren't forever. However, thanksgiving may be an appropriate way to "bless" someone. (As to blessing or being blessed by possessing things, I think that may be ludicrous to think that things are more important than persons.)
As to Christian marriages, what a pastor can address indeed proclaim is that through a living Savior whom death no longer has dominion, those who have been baptized into Christ have been joined to a new biography, literally, factually and historically. If this isn't distinctive I don't know what is.
what I meant by "ideological"
There are points in what you write that I can appreciate sympathetically. Some where I do not entirely agree but frequently we seem more in the prudential realm of difference in the weight given to the points or issues. What seems plausible to me seems plausible to you. What seems determinative to you seems less so to me. It's been a long day and I can't go through all the details on that, but I do want to say that I appreciate your note even though I don't come to the same conclusions.
In the little time I have, however, I want to say that I am truly sorry about the offense given by the use of the word “ideology” and “ideological.” As I noted, I was just throwing in something I’d written for someone else in another context. I wasn’t taking as much care as I otherwise would about word choice. But I didn’t mean it all that snidely. I could have used “theology,” but I was looking for a term that suggested that the kind of theology I meant was less reflective and descriptive than comprehensive, systematic, and prescriptive. I’ve noticed that several times in this I discussion I’ve expressed concern about the danger of overextending truths and insights such that they can end up obscuring other truths. That’s what I meant by “ideologizing,” part of my concern for more humility and greater recognition of the still unknown and unfathomed. It wasn’t the best word, but it was the one that had occurred to me when I wrote this note to my younger colleague.
In Christ,
John
Homosexuality Denies the Gospel
A divorce is a bad thing because it necessarily suggests, by way of that picture, that the Church has no use for her Bridegroom or that the Bridegroom could stop loving His Bride.
In the same way, homosexuality is a denial of this fundamental Gospel REALITY. In terms of this picture, homosexuality represents either the church saving herself or Christ dying for Himself or something strange like that.
I wonder, Pr. Stendahl, what thoughts you have on this reality of Christ and his church and its denial by the very nature of homosexuality.
In Christ,
Mark
Jesus, our lover and bridegroom
But your note reminded me that as a member of that precious Church I also sing other dear hymns, tender words that proclaim Jesus the lover of my soul. And many of those songs are love songs of the sort that a heterosexual male like myself would not imagine singing to another man, words of deep, caressing emotion. "Fairest Lord Jesus," "Soul, Adorn Thyself with Gladness," etc. And when I think of the reality of the Incarnation, I sometimes think of the relevance of Adam's exclamation, "This at last is flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone!"
I'm sure there are some "manly men" who are put off by this imagery (and of course there are also a few folks who bid us banish any gendered language from our worship and discourse) but for myself I feel no significant sexual confusion over the fact that I may speak as if my soul were a woman and Jesus its lover, dearest friend, companion, bridegroom, and husband. I don't particularly find my heterosexuality getting in the way of what that language has to say to me, and about me, and, most important, about Jesus. I suppose if I were gay or if I were a woman or if I were just a person with other life experiences I might experience that imagery somewhat differently, but I don't think it would automatically be a problem.
I suppose what I'm saying is that I appreciate the topic you raise but I don't particularly see it as a problem. It's just my sense of it and I may be wrong, but I think you're overextending here, taking good and beautiful words beyond what they were intended to do and say and thus creating a problem where there needn't be any. At least, I don't see a compelling logic here. I think you have a stronger case in regard to the divorce question and I'm sympathetic to the concern you raise there. Considering homosexuality some kind of denial of the relationship between Christ and his Bride just seems too much of a stretch for me.
Come to think of it though, if one believes, as I personally do not, that allowing gay people to have civil marriages undermines and threatens heterosexual marriage, then maybe this makes sense. I haven't yet met a single resident of this commonwealth who complains of his/her marriage being devalued or damaged in that way.
Yours in Christ,
John
Homosexuality Denies the Gospel
Thanks for your reply. To say that I am overextending the words is a rather feeble reply at best. Paul clearly speaks of the mystery of Christ and the church AS PICTURED by a husband and wife. How can a man-man or woman-woman "marriage" be a picture of a Bridegroom and Bride? It just doesn't work.
I'm not terribly surprised that you have added a sentimental spin on the question, trading a discussion of the REALITY for your own emotional response to that reality. It's the same general way that you have spun "physike" into "born that way." I wonder whether a pedophile could also claim that's just the "physike" way he is. There really is no place for actual, damnable sin in your view of the Scriptures here. So for what did Christ die?
In the end, your hermeneutic is not faithful to the text, but interprets the text in light of your own emotions and experiences. No one will ever effectively argue against that because one cannot be proved wrong whose ultimate source of authority is his own heart. This is precisely what happened to Eve when she chose to eat the fruit on the basis of her own evaluation of it (looks good, makes you wise, etc.) instead of God's clear and unambiguous Word.
I appreciate your lengthy post on the topic as it gives insight into the "other side's" "enthusiastic" interpretation of God's Word and makes the arguments clearer.
In Christ,
Mark
comment
Appreciate this reflection. This is exactly the methodology currently being used by some (many? most?) within the ELCA to support their political leanings in order to influence policy. Come to think of it, this is the current hermeneutic that the so-called revisionists use to buttress their faux- biblical ideas. And once again the predictions of Feuerbach confirm, at least for me, that we are all creating our own gods and worshipping our own creations. Good insights here
comment
Appreciate this reflection. This is exactly the methodology currently being used by some (many? most?) within the ELCA to support their political leanings in order to influence policy. Come to think of it, this is the current hermeneutic that the so-called revisionists use to buttress their faux- biblical ideas. And once again the predictions of Feuerbach confirm, at least for me, that we are all creating our own gods and worshipping our own creations. Good insights here.
unenthused
One of the profoundly painful things about so many of these conversations for me—and perhaps I am being foolish to mention my feelings here, seeing as I seem to get accused of appealing to experience and emotion for having done so—is the sense of being unheard and falsely accused. It was really extreme up above when one of the participants was convinced, even after explicit correction, that I was myself gay. That was sad and frustrating, but at least the sheer absurdity of it provided some slightly comic touch. Here, however, I again find frustrating misunderstanding, this time without anything at all to smile about.
So let me try, without any further reference to my emotions or anyone else's, seek to clarify.
1) You have provided no convincing proof that the existence of same-gender unions makes it impossible to understand or picture the relationship of Christ the Bridegroom with his Bride the Church. Your assertion expresses your inability to imagine and is in that sense itself an appeal to experience (certainly at least as much as my contrary argument from my ability to imagine is).
(Parenthetically, it occurs to me just now that maybe we need to get into a more fundamental epistemological and ontological discussion of the nature of reality and its linguistic conveyance before we can understand each other on this point, even though it may seem contrary to the spirit of Luther to suggest that we have to get our philosophy straight in order to speak of Christ. :-) I do at least want to indicate to you that even though your position does not seem cogent to me, I am interested in understanding it better and I think I can catch a glimmer of understanding of how you come to the reasoning that you do.)
2) You speak of my having spun the meaning of "physike" into "born that way." In fact, the argument that I have put forward emphasizes that it is a misunderstanding and a mistake to define "physike"in terms of the way we were born. Your description of my thought on that score is an accusation which makes me wonder if you've really read what I wrote.
3) You say there's no place for actual, damnable sin in my view of the scriptures. In fact I speak frequently, and am deeply aware, of the reality of sin, divine wrath, evil, and damnability. The notion that disagreement on this particular point of interpretation entails ignorance of those realities and of their awesome consequence is a logical and theological leap that you might want to reconsider.
4) I am not, in the classic Lutheran sense of the word, an "enthusiast" and I do not lodge determinative authority either in my own heart or in my individual thoughts. I take the Scriptures and our Confessions seriously and I believe that I have made my arguments faithfully to them. If I have failed, it has not been for lack of serious effort or desire to be faithful in thought and interpretation. (Please excuse the emotional element in that last sentence.)
5) In seeking to hear, trust, and obey God's clear and unambiguous Word (and so to "love fear, and trust God," to use the catechism's phrase) Christians have sometimes been surprised to find that that they now understand that word, i.e. what that word is telling them, differently. This Reformation Day we shall again recall one rather significant instance. Luther had read the Bible and thought he understood it before he came to understand its word of grace for him. The Word then speaks no less clearly or unambiguously than it did before; sometimes indeed its meaning seems clearer, more cogent and even more urgent than before. To assume that any and all such hearing of a different yet still unambiguous clarity in Scripture is but the prideful and selfish imagining of Eve before the fruit of temptation is to risk the shutting of one's own ears not only to one's brothers and sisters but to the living Word itself. Such assumption falls into the sin of pride.
This is the way it seems to me. To say so is not enthusiasm, subjectivism, or mere argument from experience. It is an acknowledgment of the sort that I have made repeatedly in this conversation. Though I am persuaded, I may also be mistaken. Even perceiving the Word clearly and ambiguously the way that I do, I am but a sinner and must put my trust not in my rightness but in the grace of my God and in the Cross of Christ. This humility, I think, is at the very least a faithfulness to the treasure of the Lutheran Reformation. My plea here has been for such humility even as we argue. Sinners all, beggars all, let us treat one other with some semblance of the respect and dignity—even if we cannot quite manage the love—that Christ has shown us.
Now I am verging back into speaking from my heart. But if I may again speak of my feelings I want to say that I have too often here sensed myself as if encased by others inside a thing of straw, like a great unwieldy scarecrow that is not me nor my thoughts nor my heart nor the life of my body but the straw man of others' assumptions. I sometimes despair of escaping from all that straw that others understand me to be. The frustration can arouse anger and bitterness. So I seek to remember at least these two things:
First, that you who are, as Sarah Wilson put it in publishing my little piece, on "the other side" from me may also have this feeling of being misconstrued, demeaned, and trapped within the assumptions of others, and that you and I may be writing out of similar hurts and fears for the Bride of Christ whose flesh and blood includes our own and that of those whom we love. My own frustration should then move me not so much to anger as to compassion.
Secondly, that the despair I feel within me is not of God. Despair is a sin and a temptation to be resisted.
Yours in Christ,
John
Conflation
comment
Marriage in the Bible (Heterosexual)
Modelling marriage in the Scriptures
All cases of marriage in the Scriptures are of man to woman.
All cases of homosexuality are referred to negatively, whether it be the Old Testament prophets, Paul or Jude.
it was modelled in all the marriages you see in Scripture
A man is a man and a woman is a woman. Connect the dots- God's word is clear.
(1) SIN: Homosexuality can't be used in the Biblical marriage model because it is deemed sinful repeatedly in scripture. That case has been made over and over again in Lutheran Forum and elsewhere.
(2) SALVATION: From Gen. through Rev., sexual immorality is sin and we are warned to stay clear of it. (confess and repent also) Read the last two chapters of Rev. and decide if "how one orders his life sexually has an impact on his salvation".(paraphrase from Gift and Trust)
(3) SACRED SYMBOLISM In Gen., woman is created by God as man's suitable companion. As posted above by others, the man/female marriage models and symbolism in scripture relating to God/Israel, Christ/Church only reinforce the sacred order of marriage, its importance and natural law.
(4) SUBSTITUTION/SIN: Many places in scripture, there are warnings about altering scripture. Exchanging heterosexual with homosexual (or equating the two) is altering scripture. (You would be substituting a sinful arrangement for God's design. And yes, scripture supports what I have just said.)
(5) STRAYING/SIN: There are scriptural warnings about leading people astray. (It would be wrong to let people (esp. children) think that the Bible does not teach against homosexuality and behavior by blessing it.)
(6) SUMMARY: All these points have been on posts by others over and over again. They have been stated very well by people much more knowledgeable than me. I am saying "nothing new under the sun". You will say I am "falling back on the "one man and one woman" thing"-- but that's because it is the Word of God-- one man/one woman is what a marriage is meant to be and there is scripture (as shown above) that says it is to stay that way.
Those who take issue with God's design and His Word need to take it up with God Himself. It appears that your argument is with Him and His Word. Jesus is the Word.
I pray that you might trust God and His Word and rest in His grace. God Bless You.
the Reformers were mistaken about a few things, then
Are we saved if we sin? Your statements on salvation imply that only those who do not sin will be saved. That's the Mosaic covenant requiring works for salvation, not the Good News of Christ, who promises forgiveness to all of us sinners.
Symbolism is extremely subjective. Is wine a sign of drunkenness or the Kingdom? Is a cross a symbol of death or a symbol of life?
To "altering" Scripture: do you think AC 28:65 is incorrect, where it accepts and upholds the idea that absention from blood is no longer necessary? This "alteration" is no different than the "alterations" of Scripture that Christ, Paul and the Apostles practiced.
If the only arguments you can put forward is 'it's sinful by definition' or 'has to be one man/one woman just because', I think you need to reexamine your resistance. What is intrinsic to homosexuality that merits it being considered sinful? Consider what Christ said concerning the Sabbath laws in Mark 4:24: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." The same could really be said for the rest of the Bible-- it was given to us by God for life, not death. John makes that explicit in John 3:17 as well-- Christ did not come for condemnation.
reply to Peter
If you would have taken the time to carefully read my post before you totally ranted, you might have seen that I did include "confess" and "repent" in my brief bullet point on salvation. I am a life-long Lutheran, very aware of the reformation and church history, a Bible reader, and more aware of God's grace and mercy than you can imagine. Truly, that is the truth. God is real. Jesus lives! Scripture (the Epistles and the Gospels) tells us to seek to lead a godly life, even though we all fall short. We do not want to be deliberately sinning and should not do so. We do not want to stray from God and yes, Lutheranism teaches that you can lose your salvation. That is what I meant by bullet points (1) and (2).
Perhaps when you stand before God on judgment day, for one fleeting moment you will recall with remorse your chastisement of a person who made a particular Lutheran Forum post in 2009 directing you to read the end of Revelation concerning the need to confess sin and repent of sins. (You are right: Jesus did not come to condemn the first time, but scripture says (Jesus said) there will be judgment at the second coming)
If by chance, God made repeated typos and outright errors all through the Bible and it turns out there is no judgment, then you are saving yourself time in this life by not concerning yourself with the scripture in Revelation.
"intrinsic". From Merriam Webster on-line:
1 a : belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing <the intrinsic worth of a gem> <the intrinsic brightness of a star> b : being or relating to a semiconductor in which the concentration of charge carriers is characteristic of the material itself instead of the content of any impurities it contains
2 a : originating or due to causes within a body, organ, or part <an intrinsic metabolic disease> b : originating and included wholly within an organ or part <intrinsic muscles---
Here is some scripture: Genesis 2:18-25 (NIV) (the NIV notes are shown in parentheses)
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [h] (the man) no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [i](took part of the man's side) and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j](part) he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [k] (woman sounds like Hebrew for man)'
for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Five things: (1) God searched exhaustively through the animal kingdom with Adam for a suitable helper for him(2) God used part of man to create woman as his suitable helper, (3) God's design of woman was customized for man, (4) marriage is established as between a man and woman. (5) heterosexual parenting is established also.
Woman was created by God with material removed from Adam. In Verse 24, the words "father and mother" imply heterosexual marriage and heterosexual parenting and describe marriage as "man" and "wife" being "united" and becoming "one flesh". The "one flesh" of heterosexual intercourse is the uniting of the man and woman (taken out of man) to be complete and whole just as God created Adam to be prior to the rib (part) removal. My goodness! The word "intrinsic" comes to mind! Marriage is not totally complete without the essential (intrinsic) parts found in man and woman!
A study of the beauty and meshing of human anatomy, the wonder of procreation, and also of the complementary nature of man and woman in their entire relationship affirms the intrinsic beauty, complementarity and completeness of God's design of marriage. Also heterosexuality is apparent to almost everyone on the planet over the ages in many cultures as natural--- intrinsic to nature, intrinsic to the natural order of the world.
You asked me what is wrong with homosexuality and homosexual behavior besides the fact that is condemned as sin in scripture repeatedly? Well, look above at the Genesis text -- a male and female component (a man and woman component) is intrinsic i.e. essential) to God's design of marriage. Woman is the missing part of Adam (man) and when they are united, the intrinsic whole is there. It is essential that both one male and one female are in the marriage. There is an intrinsic complementarity (male/female) in marriage. However, there is only male-male combo or a female-female combo with homosexuals. Something very essential and intrinsic to marriage is missing in a homosexual couple-- the opposite sex. Homosexuality is intrinsically redundant and lacking (not whole) when compared to God's design for marriage.
I will also direct you to Ephesians 5. You did not care for my term "sacred symbolism". You will recognize the direct quoting of Genesis 2:24 in verse 5:31. "Profound mystery" is the sacred symbolism. The parallels between Christ and the Church and husband and wife are there anyway all the same. (and elsewhere in scripture)
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
If you read the above passage from Ephesians, you will also see the intrinsically complementary nature of marriage between a man and a woman. In their differences as man and woman lies the strengthened bonds and the act of each one of them dying to self. Man and woman must be aware and attentive to the other's vastly different needs and desires. Again, part of the marriage design. A dying of two selves to become one flesh. Marriage is not an affirmation or amplification of self.
If you have read this far, I will sign off by saying this is my last post. I will leave the pastors and scholars to it. All that I could tell anyone is to read the Bible and pray. I will pray for you and all of the ELCA. God bless you. May God have mercy on all of us.
With Appreciation and Some Questions
Great to have this occasion to catch up with you and renew our acquaintance, fellow YDS alum! Don’t think we were in the same Yale graduating class (I’m a “74 grad, and I think you had me by a year), but from time to time we did cross paths during these years. (Not that many Lutherans, so we tended to be pretty visible to each other.)
I enjoyed and appreciated your article. It is one of the best (probably the best) articulation of a pro-Assembly apology that I have read. Of course it is a little too Post-Modern for my tastes – too open to the contextual/historical relativity of interpretations. (I’ve tended to be a Childs-Holmer-Lindbeck-Frei freak, so you can understand my hang-ups.) But that does not mean that the coherence of your argument is diminished. Would love to see some CORE spokespersons try to dialogue with you. Might lend some real clarity to the debate.
I want to invite a dialogue with you from another angle. You see, with Carl Braaten I have found Luther to suggest that sex and marriage are Kingdom on the Left issues. For me that entails that the insights of science are relevant in doing the right thing for church and society with regard to our position on gay and lesbian relationships.
In the questions I now pose, please do not feel that I am trying to put you on the spot. I raise them for a broader audience and hope we can get ELCA headquarters to answer them. Want to try to help me and the whole church get those answers from Higgins Road? Truly persuasive answers can get me and perhaps other critics of the Assembly where I want to be, with you and the ELCA majority. But without them, how can I join in?
Your comments presuppose the natural character of homosexuality (as you respond critically to Paul’s charge that gay relationships are unnatural – Romans 1:26-27).
I recently did a piece for the Forum Online which presents the relevant scientific data related to whether homosexuality is natural. Could you take a glance at it? Along with the Leader of the Human Genome Project, I think it implies that some of us have a natural disposition to homosexuality, but not that it is genetically inevitable. And if I interpret the data correctly at this point, what does that do to your or the Assembly’s conclusions?
It seems to me that arguments for the natural, God-given character of homosexuality based on the available scientific data entail that God has also created you and me to stray on our spouses and they on us (we do have a natural inclination) and likewise that God has created some to perpetrate violence (since some of us are born with a genetic disposition to such behavior). Help me understand the difference between claiming that gays are created by God to love those of their own sex and to sanction these other behaviors. If we need to reinterpret the Bible to take into account the new perspectives we have about homosexuality (welcome new strangers), don’t we need to do the same with regard to adultery and violence? If not, why not?
So glad to have this reason to renew our acquaintance. Hope we can have few exchanges about these matters. Wouldn’t it be great if we could forge a coalition to get some answers?
thoughts worth pursuing, I think
Thanks for responding. I do recall you from our overlapping time at YDS and I did see your earlier post on the (to me unsurprisingly inconclusive) scientific data here. I was tempted to comment but frankly I was just then trying to decide whether I had the stomach or the time to venture into this online environment. I'd ventured out into this sort of forum a number of times before and had found it a pretty frustrating experience, both time-consuming and disheartening. Mixing historical periods of physiology into a single metaphor, I had then wondered if it was testosterone or bile that fueled so much of the conversation. (I mean that not just in regard to others but also introspectively, in the toxic excesses of such secretions within myself.) So I hadn't commented, but I was interested to see the post, and I did recognize your name.
I smiled to see myself described as Post-Modern. I wouldn't have thought so, but I reckon if it has to be a choice I prefer post-modern to modern (in the sense of Enlightenment rationalism, positivism, idealism, optimism, etc., all the ideological permutations of our two recent centuries). But I consider myself also still a devoted student of the men you mentioned. George Lindbeck was quite possibly the most important theological mentor in my formation as a pastor, and only last week I leaned heavily on insights from Paul Holmer in my pastoral conversation with a parishioner. So, while I probably would not describe the level of my devotion to these folks as attaining "freak" fan status, I don't see myself as having abandoned the truths and perspectives they conveyed.
Incidentally, the contemporary systematic theologian I find myself most frequently appreciating these days is Robert Jenson, whom I regard as probably our most brilliant thinker in that field. That despite some fairly significant quibbles with Jens on several ethical and political points and also some high regard for a number of theologians whom I think he ought to have treated more appreciatively. He has some blind spots, I think, but when he sees clearly he usually also perceives with astounding insight.
There are a few points in your note that would be interesting to follow up at greater length. I could note that I have a suspicion that you misperceive your church when you talk about the folks at Higgins Road, and that I do know that many do think them to have more control , more resources, and more ideological coherence and intention than I hear alleged about them. (Incidentally, in many conservative communities this issue is often thought of as one imposed from above, but most of the folks I've known in the ELCA "bureaucracy" and "hierarchy" have experienced it, and, as long as they could, resisted it, as something forced on them "from below.") Or we could talk about this sort of "slippery slope" argument—"if we accept this, next thing we'll be having adultery, or polygamy, or pedophilia, necrophilia, or sex with farm animals"—that comes into play with its attendant fears and facile yet seemingly unassailable logic. Or we could discuss what it means to re-interpret as opposed to interpreting the scriptures. All might be fruitful conversations. (Or not, as people say today.)
But much though I'd like to deal with those points, the aspect of your post that has me most eager for clarification is the theme that you also seem focused on, that of "nature." I would agree, as I understand the terms of the distinction, with the assertion that marriage is of the kingdom of the left, the civil and creational realm. Such has been my teaching in pre-nuptial and marital counsel and my argument in ecumenical conversation. Marriage, as all that is of good and blessing and revelatory of God's loving will, may be described as sacrament, but that does not make it a Sacrament of the New Covenant. That distinction seems basic Lutheranism to me, and it's also why we are more able than our Roman cousins to consider marriage subject to failure; sacraments cannot fail, but in the realm of creation all, even the sacred and precious, is vulnerable to sin, dysfunction, disease, and death. Still, the further questions concern what this entails.
Your note, it seems to me, takes me as proposing certain things about the "naturalness" or "God-givenness" of "homosexuality." You clearly have an interest in discovering as much as we can about the biology and chemistry, the genetics and mechanisms involved in creating this phenomenon. What is "nature" and what is "nurture" and how much choice exists here? Let me say that such questions seem to me interesting and worth pursuing but a precise theory of their outcome was not particularly central to my argument. I suppose that I would argue for the "natural character of homosexuality" in the sense that I understand you to mean it—though there may be semantic and definitional issues to sort through on that score—but my argument was in a sense more ethical than biological. The biology we have not fully fathomed and the etiology we may not be fully able to explain, but how people treat each other, and how we treat them, matters immensely. We don't have to figure out the former to determine the latter (though it may prove helpful if or when we do). That's part of my plea for epistemological humility, my repeated reminders that "homosexuality" is not necessarily to be considered a single, unitary phenomenon, and my argument that the meaning of "natural" (physike) in Romans 1 fundamentally involves the propriety and continence from which pagan homosexual practices represented for Paul the final stage of departure.
As I listen to Lutherans ragng over all this I can't help but recall how when I was a young Lutheran coming to understand my own theological heritage it had seemed clear that "Natural Theology" was a field of intellectual categorization we left for the Roman Catholics, along with some Calvinists, to plow. We had our strong understandings of ethics and creational goodness and the two kingdoms, but the theological enterprise of detailed doctrine on "orders of creation" seemed a continuation of just the sort of confusion of faith with philosophy that Luther had objected to.
Eventually, I began to realize that a lot of Lutherans were very much working and harvesting in the fields of "natural theology," and that some parts of our diverse and cloven Lutheran family consider them essential to our patrimony. And so I also have to admit that I had not not spent much time at YDS exploring, let alone appropriating, the Lutheran Scholastic tradition. Indeed, I imagine that George Lindbeck must have referenced Martin Chemnitz, perhaps even discussed him at length, but if so the memory has no salience for me.
Enough for now. I've got work to get to. Thank you again for your note.
In Christ,
John
Why A Lutheran Ethics Needs Science
Great to be in touch again. Apparently I have not made clear to you why I think the science of homosexuality is so relevant and why, yes, we Lutherans need to take the natural law seriously. Once I do, I think I can further clarify why it seems that you and the ELCA majority operate with Post-Modern suppositions. And once you and I have clarity about each other’s points of view, maybe we will be ready for some genuine collaboration. I’ll pass on your comments about my sense of the church and the Higgins Road folks. But I invite you to consider literature regarding the prevailing paradigms of Business Management Techniques, and how the Team-Management style dominating in many large institutions (including mainline Protestant bodies) can be manipulated to oppress opposition under the guise of teamwork and calls for conversation (Richard Sennett, The Corrosion of Character, pp.109ff.). Such an approach demonizes opposition and weights the composition of conversation participants in such a way as to guarantee the outcomes of those in power. The way the Sexuality Study and follow-up decisions were executed is a classical case of such management techniques
Now let’s consider your point about engaging in an ethical, not a biological argument, and how science or the natural law is relevant to your agenda. The burden of an ethical argument is to provide reasons for why a course of action is good. Are Biblical principles directly relevant in this case? Is it not a matter of social policy and ecclesiastical order we were considering? Such decisions belong to the realm of the Law, the Kingdom on the Left, correct? To use Biblical principles in such cases is to confuse Law and Gospel (like the Reformed and many other Protestant traditions do). In his Commentary on Psalm 101 Luther writes:
To be sure, God made secular government subordinate and subject to reason, because it is to have no jurisdiction over the welfare of souls or
things of eternal value but only over physical and temporal goods… For this reason, nothing is taught in the Gospel about how it is to be maintained and regulated except that the Gospel bids people honor it and
not oppose it. (Luther’s Works, Vol.13, p.198)
Can we really leave the natural law to the Catholics? We may be exempt from such preoccupations when it comes to interactions in the Kingdom on the Right, with individuals. But Luther frequently appealed to the natural law on public-policy matters (for many relevant quotations, see the preceding quote and Paul Althaus, The Ethics of Martin Luther, pp.25-30,133-136). And this where the scientific data I introduced is so relevant, to help us discern the orders of creation and the natural law.
If interactions with the fruits of reason (in the Kingdom on the Left) is the Lutheran way, how can I agree with you and the ELCA majority if homosexual behavior is not natural (natural in the sense of reflecting God’s Will)? What reasons, then, would there be for ordaining practicing gays and not adulterers or gang members? In your appeals to the new challenges that the presence of faithful gays pose for the Church in reconsidering old assumptions, why should that cause occupy us more than the ordination of practicioners of serial heterosexual monogamy or the ordination of active gang members? Why should they be treated any differently than practicing gays and lesbians? Those inclinations are as natural as homosexual dispositions. I need coherent reasons for your and the ELCA Assembly’s actions in order to be where I want to be, with my brothers and sisters in the church. My aim is not to put you or anyone on the spot. Just need persuasive reasons to join you.
Here is how my perception of a Post-Modern tinge to your thought and our hierarchy’s appeal to conscience emerges. For Luther and even the modern era, the conscience was public, something shaped by publiclly accessible norms. The Post-Modern vision by contrast, in accord with one of its gurus Jean-Francois Lyotard, contends that absolute and total knowledge are obsolete, giving way to constant change (“La Condition postmoderne: Rapport sur le Savoir”). Can you hear echoes of that, John, in your comments about unforeseen realities challenging the faithful, that what seemed settled and sure gives way and God gives new meaning? Do you see your Post-Modern (perhaps they are Kantian) suppositions? Here the issue seems to be how and who develops this new meaning. If it is the
individual’s conscience, which is now functioning more authoritatively than the old communal assumptions, then what is the difference between such a hermeneutic and the tyranny of the interpreter over the text posited by the gurus of DeConstruction?
This is where Higgins Road hierarchy takes us thus far. I am writing to one of the pro-Assembly respondents to my essay, and this is the hermeneutic with which he works. Carl Braaten is correct in seeing a Protestant Liberal Theology in these directions. But I do not for a moment believe that this is what you intend. Yet to avoid this outcome we need to find publicly accessible, persuasive reasons for the community to read the ancient promises’ new meanings regarding homosexual practice, right? And this is why I come to you and defenders of the ELCA decisions with the publicly accessible science.
I aim to offer you data to mount a persuasive public argument (or to lead you to rethink your position). You see, I am convinced that most supporters of the Assembly decision did so on the supposition that homosexual practice was natural, genetically inevitable. But if that conclusion is not scientifically sustainable, what happens to the decision of the majority? Suppose homosexual practice is scientifically no different from heterosexual hooking up, a giving in to the forces of nature and our natural drives? Are we really then dealing with the unforeseen reality you and your colleagues contend that we are? Just asking. But until we get persuasive answers (and the ELCA staff allows our membership to grapple with this scientific data), I can’t join you. The arguments have just not been sufficiently persuasive. But maybe you and I and others (who are wiser than me) can find the way.
weakest point