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The Speech I Would Have Made

by Marianne Howard Yoder — October 05, 2009

On Wednesday, August 19, at the ELCA assembly in Minneapolis, I stood for a long time at the microphone waiting for a time to speak. There was a lot of confusion since the bishop of the church had not given any instructions separating debate on amendments from debate on the sexuality statement as a whole. After a number of amendments were debated and voted upon, after a motion was defeated calling “for all matters before the house,” and after further debating and voting on amendments had been completed, the proposed social statement on human sexuality came to the floor. I had logged in early on in the debating on amendments, fearing I might be too far back in the line of speakers to make it to a microphone. I had stood aside for persons who wanted to speak against amendments. It was nearly my turn: the lines of those speaking “for” were long, and those of us wishing to speak “against” were relatively short...

On Wednesday, August 19, at the ELCA assembly in Minneapolis, I stood for a long time at the microphone waiting for a time to speak. There was a lot of confusion since the bishop of the church had not given any instructions separating debate on amendments from debate on the sexuality statement as a whole. After a number of amendments were debated and voted upon, after a motion was defeated calling “for all matters before the house,” and after further debating and voting on amendments had been completed, the proposed social statement on human sexuality came to the floor. I had logged in early on in the debating on amendments, fearing I might be too far back in the line of speakers to make it to a microphone. I had stood aside for persons who wanted to speak against amendments. It was nearly my turn: the lines of those speaking “for” were long, and those of us wishing to speak “against” were relatively short.

Then the young man in front of me “called for the question.” I was dumbfounded; I couldn’t fathom why someone against the social statement would wish to end the debate. The delegates voted to close debate, and I returned to my seat. At first I couldn’t sit down; I wanted to leave the hall. My husband gently persuaded me into my seat, and I sat quietly and prayed. The woman sitting to my right put a caring arm around me, and I sobbed silently. The next day I sought to explain to her why I was so upset and to share with her the speech I would have made.

The Holy Spirit did not call me to be a pastor. I was called, I believe, to be a moral philosopher, an ethicist. The skills and knowledge I have gained in my study of the history of ethical theory have led me to discern that the ELCA’s social statement on human sexuality is seriously flawed. On Wednesday afternoon, I felt called to speak a word in behalf of the Lord. My two-minute speech would have been as follows:

1) The Human Sexuality social statement is seriously flawed in its interpretation of God’s grace. It interprets Luther’s “only by grace, through faith” as God’s unconditional love toward us, which we in turn pour out upon our neighbors.

2) Let me suggest that Luther (following Augustine) taught that God’s grace comes to us through no effort on our part, that we have the free will to “turn away from God,” and that the faith part of “only by grace, through faith” is our ongoing relationship with God, provided we don’t turn away from Him.

3) It is our faith relationship with God which enables not one, but two responses:
* That we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind; and
* That we love our neighbor as ourselves.

4) Luther’s teaching on grace is not only a theology of the cross; it is also an ethic of the cross. The vertical dimension of the cross is symbolic of God’s unconditional love and our ongoing relationship with Him. The horizontal dimension of the cross is the love of neighbor, each for the other.

5) Luther’s ethic is a both/and ethic: both love of God and love of neighbor. The social statement before us gives much attention to the “loving our neighbor” part, but very little emphasis on the “loving God” part. What is left out entirely is St. John’s instruction (I John 5:3) that “to love God is to keep His commandments.”

6) Luther’s ethic is not just a gospel ethic. It is a law and gospel ethic: love of God (that is, to love God is to keep His commandments) and love of neighbor. The social statement on human sexuality fails to emphasize the keeping—as best we can, enabled through grace—of God’s moral law (that is, loving the Lord our God with heart, soul, and mind: conforming our wills to God’s will).

7) The social statement is seriously flawed. I urge that you vote against it.

If a motion had not been made to reduce the length of speeches from three to two minutes, my three-minute version would have included a comparison of God’s grace to sunshine coming down on us (Luther following Augustine following Plato) and the example—if time permitted—of the unconditional love of a parent for her child. I would have explained that my love for my sons is unconditional (that is, there is nothing any one of the three of them could do that would cause me not to love him), but that if they love me in return they will strive to live lives that will honor me. Note that the living of his life so that it honors his mother is done freely in response to the unconditional love of the mother; living in such a way as to honor his mother is done not in order to earn his mother’s love, but rather because his mother loves him no matter what he does!

If I had had the time for a full lecture or two, I could have explained more about Plato’s “Analogy of the Sun,” more about Augustine’s interpretation of Plato’s Good as God, more of Augustine’s progressive steps from belief to understanding to mystical vision and how these compare to Plato’s educational progress toward the Good—both made possible by the Good enabling the soul to know what can be known (Plato) and grace enabling our faith relationship with God through belief and understanding (Augustine). I could have reminded our Lutheran brothers and sisters that Luther knew both philosophy and theology and used knowledge and God-given reason to come to the truth of “only by grace, through faith.” But the reality of Minneapolis was that I had two minutes at the most—and then not even that!

On Friday evening, after the final vote on the ministerial resolutions, we were invited to join our neighbors in prayer for the church. I prayed with the people on my left, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

We left the assembly on Saturday morning hoping to return to our home congregation in time for Sunday-morning worship. Before leaving, we inquired of the secretary of the church if I could have my votes recorded as “dissenting” on the social statement and its implementing resolutions and on the four-part recommendation on ministry policies. At first, Mr. Swartling said “yes” and that all that was necessary was filling out a form or leaving a statement. As I was writing my name and synod on the steno pad I was offered by a member of the clerical staff, Mr. Swartling came up and said that the parliamentarian had ruled that recording dissenting opinions was out of order.

For the record, in case anyone tries to explain what happened in Minneapolis as “the Holy Spirit doing a new thing,” let me bear witness to the following.

On Wednesday afternoon, when the sexuality statement was being debated and voted on, we in the convention hall were under a tornado warning. The tornado actually touched down on the top of our building, but with little damage to it. Of greater import, perhaps, was the fact that the tornado damaged the steeple of Central Lutheran Church, across the street from the convention center. The cross spire on the top of the steeple was bent over so that the cross was hanging down, dangling. The tornado destroyed the tents that had been set up in the church courtyard.

Another extraordinary occurrence was the report of the vote on the social statement on human sexuality. The statement was adopted because exactly 2/3 of the voting members of the assembly voted in favor of it. When the vote report came up on the video screen in the great hall, the percentage was revealed as .666667!

It is my opinion that what happened in Minneapolis last week was the result of the work of a powerful political machine. The advocates have been working for at least twenty years to accomplish their goals. When the work of the first task force (early 1990s) did not yield their desired outcome due to overwhelming negative response from ELCA church members, they saw to it that there would be a second task force. When the Orlando assembly did not ratify the changes recommended by that task force, already in place was the sexuality study. Political maneuvering yielded the changes in ministerial policies as recommendations requiring only simple majority votes. Community organizing—synodical-level organizing—gave them the rest.

Those of us whose consciences are captive to the Word of God made good arguments based on sound Biblical principles all the way through. For example:

* That the Holy Spirit would not do a new thing against His own teaching or against the teaching of God the Father or against the teaching of God the Son—the three are one, and they cohere!

* That the issue of same-sex blessing as in marriage and the rostering of practicing homosexuals is not a justice issue. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in “Letter from Birmingham Jail” states, unequivocally, that the way we can know whether or not a human law is a just law is by whether or not it conforms to the moral law of God.

* That the proposed same-sex inclusion policies are decidedly different from our policies allowing for women clergy. We pointed out that while the Bible includes some passages which exclude women from priestly callings, there are numerous examples of women serving in holy callings. The Bible speaks with one voice, however, concerning same-sex relations.

* That the numerous ceremonial laws of custom that are no longer thought to be relevant (for example, “You shall not wear clothes made of wool and linen woven together” in Deuteronomy 22:11) are not equivalent to God’s moral law, which does not change.

The outcome in Minneapolis finally boiled down to emotion and its legitimating foundation, the self. Each time there was lengthy debate, those on the side of the tradition had the better arguments, but the revisionists have always had the advantage of emotional appeal, which evokes sympathetic response. It’s hard to argue persuasively for coherence and scriptural authority when the speaker before or after is telling his heartrending story of exclusion and hurt feelings. But in the end, it didn’t matter! Those whose consciences were bound (to their own moral autonomy) had the votes!

For the record, emotion was evident even among those of us on the side of the tradition. On Wednesday afternoon, I found myself compelled to jump up and clarify the fact to the whole assembly that a motion to “call for all matters before the house” meant that we would not be allowed to debate the statement on sexuality as a whole piece when many of us had been waiting patiently in line to do so. Later, I found myself sobbing silently because I had been prevented from speaking during the debate. I cried that same night, sensing that I had just witnessed the destruction from within of the church body I have loved since childhood.

My academic discipline is profoundly rational. I can make persuasive, substantive arguments, pro or con, on almost any controversial topic. Philosophers are critical thinkers. We look for coherence and substance in the arguments that are made by our colleagues. We can see when coherence is lacking between theory and practice, between founding principles and actions. The social statement on sexuality (“Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust”), the implementing resolutions, and the recommendations on ministry policies do not cohere with the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions. We are no longer a church with integrity (“integrity“ from “integer” = “whole”) if our policies and actions do not follow from—do not cohere with—our founding documents: God’s revelation to us in the Holy Scriptures and the witness of the saints across the centuries, the witness of the catholic faith. Our church bears the name of Martin Luther. Luther stated his standard for coherence at Worms, “Unless I can be persuaded by plain reason and the Holy Scriptures…” In the case of the Minneapolis assembly, critical thinking and adherence to the Holy Scriptures did not prevail. The appeals of the emotivists carried the day.

We have come to a time when the logical positivists and the emotivists are telling us that “right” and “wrong” are merely terms of expression sometimes tied to strong feelings, that the only factual statements about ethical concerns are the ones that reveal statistically the opinions of people or their votes. Emotivism is the prevailing ethical understanding in our culture today, and perhaps the majority of people in our democratic society think that is as it should be, even though emotivism is a path to radical subjectivism. But in the church? How can we be a church if we say God’s moral law is only a matter of perspectival truth, only a matter of perspective as in “my opinion” being opposed to “your opinion,” or “my bound conscience” being opposed to “your bound conscience”?

Throughout the assembly we were reminded by church leaders that the water of baptism unites us regardless of our opposing views on the sexuality documents. What they failed to emphasize was the “dying to sin, rising to Christ,” the cleansing nature of baptism. The waters of Minneapolis—the rains before, during, and after the tornado—have become for me a symbol of God’s salvific cleansing. Those of us whose consciences are bound to the Word of God have been set free from the bondage of a “church” whose leaders sought to stifle and marginalize us because we were holding fast to the Holy Scriptures. We gained unambiguous clarity in Minneapolis: the ELCA is no longer a law-and-gospel church; the ELCA is no longer the church of Luther.

Martin Luther was a law and gospel theologian and ethicist. The eternal law of the Creator/Designer, the natural law within human beings leading them toward their God-given natural inclinations and purposes, and the divine law (the decalogue given to Moses, the Great Commandment, and the New Commandment of our Lord) were all included in his teaching. Luther emphasized that it is because God loves us, because we are in a faith relationship with Him, that we strive, enabled by grace, to live our lives in conformity to His will. When we fail, we repent and are forgiven, redeemed by the precious blood of Christ, our Savior. A church that ignores God’s revealed law is not Lutheran. Luther taught that it is the law and our inability to keep it which drives us to Christ—to the gospel—in the first place. Without the law, there is no need for redemption.

Luther and his followers understood that the church of the Reformation is always in the process of reforming. With God’s help, we continue the reforming, back to who/Whose we are: a law and gospel church of those who are at the same time saint and sinner, ever penitent. We are thankful to God, Who in His abounding and steadfast love saved us by the cross of Christ and calls us to the two directional + life of loving Him and loving each other.

Marianne Howard Yoder is a member of Grace Lutheran Church in Newton, North Carolina. She is a wife, a mother, a grandmother, and a philosopher.

Re: "The Speech I Would Have Made"

Posted by Don Guizzetti at October 05, 2009 08:56
A thoughtful and cogent statement. We (the ELCA) I am afraid have become modern-day Samaritans--practicing a distorted faith based on partial truth and not true to the Law or Gospel.

Thank you for your words.

Posted by James Gustafson at October 05, 2009 09:58
Thank you for your article. For the reasons you so clearly laid out, I was compelled to leave the ELCA last month. Thank you for putting the entire matter in a nutshell when you said, "the ELCA is no longer the church of Luther."

A very well-thought-out speech...

Posted by David Pross at October 07, 2009 01:02
...that would have been "inconvenient" for the powers-that-be controlling the CWA to hear.

I, too, have left the ELCA for the LCMS, for almost exactly the same reasons given here.

I notice she's a grandmother. Grandmothers usually have something worth hearing. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, would have silenced my gran if she had something to say!

Without the law....

Posted by Jon Page at October 05, 2009 13:53
there is no need for redemption. Paul would write that the law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. If we chip away at the law are we also not chipping away at our need for Christ as our savior?

Thank you for your thoughtful words.

The Speech they should have heard

Posted by Ronald Williams at October 05, 2009 23:03
Thank you so much for sharing this thoughtful speech with us.

Calling a Spade a Spade

Posted by Henry at October 06, 2009 07:06
Marianne, you have very correctly explained how the ELCA is no longer Lutheran, but an imposter. The onus is now on those who remain in the ELCA to prove that this church is not Antinomian. Perhaps it is time for those who do remain in the ELCA, yet wish to engage in an open internet exchange of ideas with like-minded ELCA, start their own "Antinomian Forum". . . .

Re: "The Speech I Would Have Made"

Posted by Jay at October 06, 2009 08:49
Hi Marianne - I wish you would have had the opportunity to speak. As to the man in front of you who called the question, it is my recollection that people with points of order or procedural motions could line up at either a red or green microphone, so he may not have been against the sexuality statement - he probably just picked the shorter line.


Morals of the Story

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at October 06, 2009 19:18
Thanks for telling your story of exasperation at so-called 'dialogue,' ELCA-style. Ironically, after all these years of endless forums, committees of the whole, task forces, studies ad nauseum, the one thing we never got was a genuine debate.
There is a reason for this, of course. The ELCA was designed to avoid theology and especially genuine theological debate, i.e. debate about faithfulness here and now based upon the binding doctrinal norms articulated in Chapter Two of its constitution. That is why, as Jim Nestigen has rightly argued, those of us who actually hold to those doctrinal norms have been "de-churched" by the ELCA process. It is why, despite the fact that Marianne had the arguments, she got neither hearing nor traction.

Some morals from Marianne's sad story and questions for the future:

One moral of the story: not everyone is competent to debate. Question: what would credential one as a competent theological interlocuter? Question: are we really willing to be a theological church, a church were the process of theology decides questions rather than otherwise?

Another moral of the story: you can't have a debate without substantive groundrules (like, canon, saying what the story of God's saving Word tells; creed, saying who the saving God is, and confession, saying, how we are included in the foregoing). Question: what is really wrong with Bishop Mark Hanson's ex opere operato appeal to our baptism as a trump card that simply suspends the doctrinal groundrules just laid out? Why is this appeal to unity not only bogus, not only a shameless ideological abuse of the sacrament to shore up a tottering denomination, but in the logical sense that Marianne focuses on, question-begging?

Another moral of the story: you can't have a debate without a mutually trusted umpire. Question: how could we have a genuinely churchly debate, which not only assumed trust in the referee, but worked to build community among the debaters? Comment: we have phoney bishops, bishops in name but not in reality, as they just proved by their non-leadership. Question: what would real bishops be, who ruled the church according to the gospel, as per AC 28? I don't care whether we call them referees, umpires, adjucators or bishops, the point is that the episcopal function is to credential the competent, lift up and uphold the groundrules and lead the debate forward through the consensus fidelim to the discernment of the Spirit who speaks by the Word to the glory of the Father.

Where is Slim Pickens when you really need him?

Posted by Samuel Zumwalt at October 06, 2009 22:55
As Slim Pickens said to Harvey Korman in "Blazing Saddles", "Ditto!" God knows we need a little levity here.

Beautifully and cogently argued, Marianne. Precisely stated, Paul. What gifts to the Church you both are!


"Blazing Saddles"

Posted by David Pross at October 07, 2009 01:04
I think the campfire scene in "Blazing Saddles" had more worth hearing than what came out of CWA.

"Blazing Saddles"

Posted by Pr. Rafe Allison at October 08, 2009 00:09
Yep... they wanted "all the beans" at the Minneapolis campfire... but now they're having trouble stomaching the "blowback!" The "air" definitely needs to be cleared and our message (IF indeed the ELCA has ONE message!) needs to be clarified (corrected?) For those of us staying on as the "resistance"... stay "low-and-slow but grow!" (Under the radar when necessary... looking long-term which IS necessary... and grow... use the grassroots and be smart... history shows it's a formidable combination!) Here we stand! Christ's Peace.

Bart: Mongo, why would Hedley Lamarr care about "where the choo-choo go"?
Mongo: Don't know. Mongo only pawn in game of life.



Blazing Saddles... redux

Posted by Rev. David Sidwell at October 08, 2009 07:41
Since these threads have been so serious I sense a desire for levity... The Slim Pickens response, "Ditto" came about because he forgot his lines. In a panic he blurted out the first thing he could think of, "Ditto!" He actually camped out in the desert at night around a campfire and refused to commute to a hotel. He had played a cowboy so often he had become one! Mongo's lines were written by Richard Pryor. Anyway, Slim's character turns out to be Gay at the end of the movie-- (or at least MSM), so-- Mel Brooks makes sure everyone gets satirized by the end of the movie. Soon the movie will be illegal because of Mongo hitting the (obviously fake) horse.

With one exception, the ELCA churches around me are a fraction of their former selves. There is no delight in this. My observation on this is quite simple. The church I serve has been focused on its mission and ministry. These other churches have been "distracted/obsessed" with issues being forced on them from Chicago. Over time, the waste of resources, time and effort on issues irrelevant to the majority of our constituents makes a difference. I am paying attention to my job: rightly dividing Law and Gospel and preaching the same. I have said nothing negative regarding the ELCA or its decisions from the pulpit or in my newsletters. There is no pint in doing so.

PS: The LCMS will have a convention next summer where we will argue bitterly over such items as selling KFUO and whether or not Circuit Counselors will be appointed or elected (oh, and whether or not the Commission on Worship is "rigged" toward contemporary music.) Wouldn't you love to be so bored?

Class Act

Posted by Kurt Johnson at October 08, 2009 15:58
David,

Wow! You're a real class act?


Class Act?

Posted by Rev. David Sidwell at October 09, 2009 07:21
No, Kurt, I am sinful, sarcastic and I love satire, particularly Blazing Saddles. I have actually said nothing critical publicly despite writing two rough drafts that I stuffed in the drawer awaiting less emotional days. Of course it is self-serving and pragmatic--I have already received "transfers". But I am seriously incredulous at the "product" that the ELCA is sending into the field (particularly from Berkely). I don't see how conservative forces within the ELCA can survive as long as your seminaries are graduating such candidates.

Pross, not Sidwell

Posted by Kurt Johnson at October 09, 2009 14:08
Actually, David, my comment was not directed at you but rather at Pross, who chose to denigrate the discussion to gastroenterology.

"Blazing Saddles" campfire scene

Posted by David Pross at October 09, 2009 15:49
I'm no gastroenterologist, but I think that scene from "Blazing Saddles" is bloody hilarious.

I also think that what came out of the CWA stinks worse than what Mel Brooks implied in that scene.

If that makes me "not classy," c'est la vie.

Class Act

Posted by Rev. David Sidwell at October 11, 2009 08:02
My apology Kurt.

"Blazing Saddles"

Posted by Mark Schroeder at October 14, 2009 13:31
And isn't it appropos that there is a saying: "Well, that stinks to high heaven!"

Bishop Hanson's Call for Unity

Posted by Lutheran Refugee at October 16, 2009 20:20
Regarding "Unity" Here is where that concept might come from---"Different People. Different beliefs. One Church." is one of the sayings of the Unitarian Church. Here is a link to their site talking about their principles. http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml Looks like an outline for Gift and Trust!

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing. God's timing is perfect, so your article will reach those who need it like a balm now. I also appreciate your description of the climate of the CWA. I watched some of it via web and cried too. God will do wonderful things though...many ELCA Lutheran refugees will be scattered around to other church families and good things will happen. Our family has been touched by the welcoming non-judging attitude of LCMS in our town. A breath of fresh air to not have the filter a sermon (I was in a liberal ELCA church)and instead rest in the grace of His Word.
May God have mercy on all of us.

The Next Generation

Posted by Elaine at October 07, 2009 14:12
I have been in conversation with young parents of young families - the next generation. Every time we discuss the ELCA vote, these younger people talk about their own experiences with gay or lesbian relatives, friends, co-workers, etc. They base their faith statements on how they feel and what their experiences have been, not on what the Bible says. I strongly believe that the "new" Lutheran church is heading down the path of social issues without sound doctrine. What one generation tolerates, the next will embrace.

The Current Generation and Beyond...

Posted by Johannes at October 07, 2009 19:25
I'm sorry Elaine, I have to disagree with you since statistics don't support the claim that most of those with young families are jumping into the "immoral fire" (except perhaps in the increasingly irrelevant ELCA). First, the ELCA is literally falling apart, with significantly more defections noted since the Sexual Social Statement was initiated in 2001. Second, while you may know of some parents with small children who embrace homosexuality, the overwhelming number of parents with small children are fairly conservative socially in their approaches. Sure, urban areas may find more liberal parents. But, overall, most parents (regardless of race, religion, culture) of small children fear that embracing homosexuality will send the wrong message to their children. Forgetting the obvious scriptural passages against homosexuality for a moment though, parents also tend to embrace a "Darwinian" survival mode. Put another way, they ultimately want grandchildren and feel that such an embrace may not yield the results they desire.

Finally, your claims for the Next Generation are pretty much off-base too when considering that the growth in Christianity has been toward conservative churches (for instance, I predeict that the LCMS will be the largest US Lutheran denomination within 5 years), And when considering that blacks and other ethnicities are not buying into the homosexual embracing paradigm, I just can't help believe that the homosexual movement has pretty much plateaued. Of course, the ELCA's stupidity with regard to these demographics will be its downfall. But more amazing though, when considering that scripture doesn't support the homosexual embracing paradigm anyway, you just have to shrug your shoulders and wonder why.

Falling apart?

Posted by Rik at October 08, 2009 21:58
Johannes wrote: "First, the ELCA is literally falling apart, with significantly more defections noted since the Sexual Social Statement was initiated in 2001."

What statistics are you using, and are they available online? I have heard many speak of staying in the ELCA. Are there statistics available on the number of congregations which have left since the start of the CWA August 2009? I guess it would be difficult to find statistics which could properly attribute losses in baptized membership and confirmed membership since August due to the CWA--some may leave without really explaining why.

natural law?

Posted by Peter at October 08, 2009 22:20
It's interesting that you bring up natural law within human beings as part of God's law. Homosexuality is as much a part of that as heterosexuality. There are many good questions that can be asked about law-- how does homosexual love fit in with the Decalogue and the Great Commandments-- but don't because of the denial that homosexuality and the relationships that are formed as a result are part of God's design.

More concerning, though, is that your way of thinking loses Christ in its attempt to require adherence to God's "moral law" Christ's healing is not an outside-in fix. We aren't given the strength to perform right actions without first receiving new hearts from which right actions will proceed. And those right hearts are new creations given by God on behalf of Christ's suffering and death. Those who hang their hearts on Christ will do the right actions because they have been made righteous by Him. In the case of the faithful homosexuals, you have their witness of their new lives in Christ. It does involve being married to other people of the same gender. If you're not trusting them, you're not trusting Christ within them.

Which brings us to that "moral law". I don't think you can properly separate "ceremonial" laws from "moral" laws. The penalty for breaking either is the same. Also, given the cultural understandings of homosexuality at the time, how can you even unambiguously fit homosexuality into the "moral" slot instead of "ceremonial"? And while we're on the subject, how about usury? Is that a "ceremonial" law we now disregard? You suggest that there are 2 commandments 'love God/love neighbor' as though those were two autonomous things. Love of God cannot help but result in love of neighbor, and love of neighbor can only be accomplished in love of God.

...

Posted by James Gustafson at October 10, 2009 23:57
Peter said: "In the case of the faithful homosexuals, you have their witness of their new lives in Christ. It does involve being married to other people of the same gender. If you're not trusting them, you're not trusting Christ within them."

That is about the singular worst use of hermeneutics for an justification I've ever been exposed to, honestly, I can't think of a single scripture passage to support your exegesis...

Additionally, it doesn't even fit with other things you've posted yourself. Shall we mention your examples of 'bad' Christians throughout history? But now you would have us believe that everyone who claims Christ is now not only excused of every behavior, they are justified in it and we are forced to believe them or else we don’t trust the Christ within them? Incredulous.

Peter's Canon

Posted by David Pross at October 11, 2009 00:24
I wonder if, based on his remarks, that Peter is very close to Marcion in that he only recognises the four Gospel accounts and the "good and nice" parts of Paul as Scripture, and that everything else is "apocryphal."

Hermeneutically I rarely ever notice anything from him except "Gospel" and "Christ"...no "Law and Gospel," which is not Lutheran.

But he's very certain that his beliefs are correct, and no-one's going to change that.

my canon is the entire Bible

Posted by Peter at October 11, 2009 19:35
I recognize all of Scripture, and one of the interesting assumptions is that you're setting up a dichotomy of "the Gospels" vs "everything else". While there are people on this side of the debate that do tend that way, that's not me. There's plenty of Law to be had in the 4 Gospels, and plenty of Gospel outside of them. I've centered the discussion more on Gospel because what is happening here is a case of 'gospel plus': there's a requirement being placed on a person that in order to be ordained, ie, to proclaim the Gospel, they not only have faith in Christ, but that they fulfill a certain behavior. Everyone working for the church is an unrepentant sinner. That's the condemnation of the Law. Our judgement before God under the Law is death, and worse than that, we can't fix that problem. I don't contest that. However, it is Christ who, through his death and resurrection, fixes that problem for us. The healing is inside-out, though. With our God-problem fixed, our hearts are made right, and with right hearts, we do right actions. It doesn't go right actions to right hearts.

That also brings us to "bad" Christians. The Old Adam still lives within us, and we turn from faith daily. We need to be continually renewed through Christ's death and resurrection, and that will be our experience through the entire 'not-yet' of the full realization of our regeneration. Part of our renewal is shown by our relationships. Those relationships that nurture the spirit and lead to faith in Christ must be the work of the Spirit. Consider Mark 8:38-39: "'Teacher,' said John, 'we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.''Do not stop him,' Jesus said." People are renewed in Christ and yet remain homosexual. They are called to act on those feelings in a way that serves Christ, and the best way is to establish loving relationships with each other.

David, I've heard you describe yourself as a socialist elsewhere here. Do you favor the state granting homosexuals civil unions? And as a behaviorist, are the homosexual relationships you've observed abusive, or damaging like the things NAMBLA does, or do they tend to be positive and uplifting to the individuals involved (or in the same range that hetero relationships tend to fall in)?

"Socialist"

Posted by David Pross at October 12, 2009 00:22
Not all my beliefs are socialist, but in terms of economics, it tends to lean that way. I am definitely pro-universal health care, pro-union and a fan of Michael Moore. As to civil unions, that is the kingdom of the left hand (the state) and to be left to that. I do not believe ANY part of the Christian Church shold solemnise such unions.

This is just a thumbnail sketch, but, yes, I have observed homosexual relationships that are abusive (emotionally and physically). 50/50 equality in such relationships is rare. Eventually, a dominant personality asserts itself and keeps the upper hand in the relationship (and that goes for both genders). I have also seen homosexuals who claim they are happy the way they are. I have also seen homosexuals very tormented by who and what they are (more men than women). In the latter category, there is almost a direct, positive correlation to a high level of substance abuse, depression and promiscuous sex ("cruising").

I also note that same-sex relationships tend to NOT be long-term, monogamous, etc.

I also do not note any Scriptural support for your assertion that homosexuals are called to act on their feelings in a way that serves Christ.

The disenfranchised repentant homosexual

Posted by Henry at October 11, 2009 07:18
Your analysis, James, is correct. But there is also a tendency for Peter and others who engage in this debate to either ignore or be hostile to the witness of the repentant homosexual. Certainly, not all homosexual "Christians" are alike. Homosexual "Christians" are not homogeneous (pardon the pun). Our opponents simply fail to explain on what basis the "new life in Christ" of the unrepentant homosexual should be trusted, while the "new life in Christ" of the repentant homosexual should not!

What???

Posted by Gregory at October 11, 2009 09:11
Does "natural law" have anything to do with Creation?

An excerpt of an article worth reading:



"A HOUSE DIVIDED
The ELCA; Post-Assembly-Vote (hereafter referred to as “PAV”)

9.5 Theses (a mini tip-of-the hat to Martin Luther)

By David Housholder


" It goes like this:



1) God created the world and created humankind in his own image: male and female.

2) His first command to us (over and over actually) was “be fruitful and multiply.”

3) Adam and Eve were a reflection of himself and a prototype for life-giving sexuality.

4) Jesus and Paul affirmed this Order of Creation by saying that “a man shall leave his family and cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one flesh.” Jesus, implicitly, and Paul, explicitly, commanded the single life for those who can’t, won’t, or feel led not to carry out this traditional plan.

5) Jesus was a hardliner on marriage: “What God has joined together let no one put asunder.” He saw marriage as God’s plan.

6) Thus, this is God’s best plan for our sexuality, and we ought to raise our children to live out God’s best plan for their sexuality.

7) All of our leaders should, as best they can, teach and model this central creative impulse from the very heart of God. Being celibate and single (e.g. like Paul) is the other option."

Read the whole article. This isn't about Leviticus!

Levirate marriage

Posted by Peter at October 11, 2009 19:56
Jesus also did not condemn Levirate marriage (Mark 12:19-27) (and wouldn't condemnation of the practice have been a much easier answer to the Sadducees?). Is anyone here arguing that's God's model for marriage, because it was not only ordained in the OT, but was something Jesus accepted in the NT?

And consider your own point 5: Jesus was a hardliner on marriage: “What God has joined together let no one put asunder.” He saw marriage as God’s plan.

This conversation is directly about including people in marriage and making God's plan of marriage reality for a subset of His people. Seriously, let's step back and consider that fact. You're trying to defend marriage against people who want to be married. More so, this is a subset of people who currently have no accountability for whether they stay in a lifelong relationship or not. Instead of helping them find that very accountability for which they are looking, you lump it into the same category as promiscuity. Christ's phrasing is also telling: "What God has joined together". God has joined homosexuals together as surely as He joins heterosexuals. Certainly the homosexual who divorces someone in order to be with their partner commits adultery, but so does the heterosexual who divorces someone to remarry. There's really no difference in those cases.

Final problem with 'be fruitful and multiply' is that we already have too many people on the earth. The command to Noah is to 'fill the earth', not 'overfill it'. We're overfilled, and don't have enough people to care for the orphans we already have. Homosexuality in that context seems a true gift from God to aid us in controlling our overpopulation and bringing healing and life to those who would otherwise be locked into systems of death.


Reply to Peter

Posted by Gregory at October 12, 2009 05:35
1. I was quoting Rev. Householder. Read the whole article. (I did not include a link, but a quick Google search should get you there).

2. If even Genesis is now up for grabs, we are well and truly out of business. A new name might be in order, because 'Lutheran' it surely isn't.

Peace +

Levirate marriage

Posted by Johanne at October 12, 2009 05:50
Levirate marriage writes.... "Final problem with 'be fruitful and multiply' is that we already have too many people on the earth...... Homosexuality in that context seems a true gift from God to aid us in controlling our overpopulation and bringing healing and life to those who would otherwise be locked into systems of death".

Levirate marriage, with such theology, I do not know what brand of Christianity you are (if you could be considered a Christian at all) but one thing is for sure, YOU ARE CERTAINLY NOT A CHRISTIAN OF THE LUTHERAN HERITAGE. Seriously, why hang onto the label, "Lutheran"? - everyone knows that Martin Luther would be utterly disgusted with you and your theology and would likely take legal action against the ELCA in an effort to remove the term "Lutheran" from its name? What does it get you to bend the words of God in this manner except an opportunity to damage this highly respectable sect of Christianity? The context of sexuality in the Bible from Genesis onward has always been simple - it is to protect the relationship and child bearing abilities achieved by the union of man and woman (first, for the Hebrew nation, and then, for the rest of us). Anything else is seen as an abomination, period! As has been stated, Jesus himself speaks of this man/woman relationship in the NT. To not let sinful heterosexuals off the hook though (in damaging relationships and thus possily hurting child bearing abilities), he also speaks against the evils of divorce. In other words, we as a society should be getting stronger at refuting sexual evil in this world (divorce, etc.), not looser (homosexuality, etc.). I'm sorry of such truths don't "jive" with your cultural and social visions of society. But rest assured, as a political libertarian, I really don't care what you (or others) do at the secular level. I only weep for you (and others) at your lack of ability to truly enter into a real relationship with Christ. So why do I make such a bold - and what could be considered cruel - assertion? Simple, you are only engaging Christ on you own, selfish, unfaithful, unrepentent sinful terms. Though Christ is the Good News, I really do not think that He appreciates or accepts such unreptentent sinful ways (remember, "go and sin no more"). Unrepentent sin is NOT a Lutheran trait.

"Go and sin no more"

Posted by Gregory at October 12, 2009 10:16
...that part of Jesus' words were left out of the discussion at CWA.

Have you...

Posted by Peter at October 12, 2009 19:45
...gone and sinned no more?

Jesus didn't say "try not to do it again" or even "you better be sorry if you do it again." It was "don't." More importantly, he said "Neither do I condemn you" to an adulteress who had not repented. She was an unrepentent sinner, caught in the very act, and yet she not only receives Christ's forgiveness but is sent out by Christ.

The Lutheran understanding of Christ is precisely that He engages us on our "own, selfish, unfaithful, unrepentent sinful terms" and that those terms do not survive the encounter. We can't make ourselves acceptable to God-- that is exactly what Christ must do for us and the Good News is that He did when He died on the cross.

Johanne, if the purpose of marriage is primarily to protect the "child bearing abilities" of a couple, does that mean infertile couples should not get married? And if there's more to it than that, you can't exclude the fact that homosexuals benefit from that good as well.

Also explain to me how asking homosexuals to marry each other encourages them to sexual evil when the current state is that they live outside of the protections and strictures of marriage? This is bringing law to a place where previously there was none.

Ex Opere Operato: Grace to the Unrepentant

Posted by Henry at October 12, 2009 21:49
Peter, where do you read in John's Gospel that the adultress received forgiveness while she remained unrepentant? The Lutheran understanding since the time of the Reformation has always been that the Law provokes poenetentia, after which the Gospel provokes faith. It was Johann Agricola who argued that gospel itself takes over all salvific functions by both condemning and making alive and that the Law has no role to play in the life of the believer. It is not Lutheran, as you assert, but antinomian whereby faith precedes poenitentia, and the Law is taken totally out of the salvific equation. Please explain to us how your theology and Agricola's differ!


Agricola

Posted by David Pross at October 13, 2009 09:26
I made several comparisons to Agricola when Peter first started stating his opinions, though I'm not sure how familiar Peter is with Agricola.

My own personal opinion is that intellectual and ecclesiastical honesty would be better served by the current ELCA using the "Agricolan" rather than "Lutheran" nomenclature.

Agricola and more

Posted by Peter at October 17, 2009 01:31
Henry,

I don't say that the Gospel condemns at all. That is fully the role of the Law. The Gospel is an open promise that God will forgive our sins, even if we have faith only the size of a mustard seed. The Law is summed up by love of God and love of neighbor. Love of God includes trusting God, which we routinely fail to do. The Law is why we need Christ... because we're damned otherwise. It's only in that sense that it's part of the "salvific equation"-- that our failure to uphold it is our condemnation. But the Law is always a Law of retribution and in itself cannot save us.

As to the role of the Law on the believer, it does apply, but only because we live in the penultimate and have not put the Old Adam within us to death. The 3rd use of the Law applies to that Old Adam within us, not to the new Creation created in us with our encounter with the crucified and risen Christ. Galatians makes it perfectly clear that the new life in Christ is not ruled by the Law.

As to the order of faith and repentance, repentance does not generate faith. Being sorry doesn't undo your sin. It is only Christ who can forgive your sins, and that it requires faith to trust that promise of forgiveness. Consider the Syrophoenician woman. It is her faith, not repentance, that gets her daughter healed. Repentance can only come when we fully understand the weight of the Law that sat against us, and we can't fully see just how bad it was until we have been set free.

Lutheran Refugee,

Your model analogy contradicts God's Creative capacity. The model for a person is NOT 2 arms, 5 fingers/hand, 2 legs, etc. It's the number of arms, fingers and legs that God has given any individual. You're not defective (or not the "ideal" or untrue to the "model") if you are born with 4 or 6 fingers nor if He takes some fingers or hands later in life from you. God did not screw up in giving you too many or not enough fingers, and the model analogy implies exactly that. Similarly, denying that God created people gay is a denial of His Creative works. They need to live their sexuality out just as much as do heterosexuals. We went through this back with the Reformers when they said (AC23) that not only was marriage open to priests, but that it was good and proper for priests to marry. The reasons given for priestly marriage similarly apply to homosexual marriage.

David,

What are the differences between your marriage and that between two homosexual men?



Homosexuality Is Sinful, Period!

Posted by Johanne at October 13, 2009 05:42
Peter states.... "Also explain to me how asking homosexuals to marry each other encourages them to sexual evil when the current state is that they live outside of the protections and strictures of marriage? This is bringing law to a place where previously there was none."

Peter, please understand, I need not explain that homosexuality is a sexual evil (sin) to you since scripture has done so effectively for several thousand years, and will continue to do so for thousands more. You are right though, the ELCA, and other diminishing religious bodies like them, have now taken a "side road" from scripture in order to justify society's sexual perversions under the guise of "bring(ing) law to a place where previously there was none". Wow, imagine that for a moment! If the ELCA, and these other diminished religious bodies, could actually "bring" (though in this case, everyone that can read would likely prefer the term "make" or "change") law, why, they'd be god-like, kinda like Adam in the Garden and the downfall of man (but hey, you probably don't believe that silly old story either). Let's face it, the CWA action was nothing if not blasphemous.

Infertile or Childless Couples

Posted by Lutheran Refugee at October 16, 2009 20:33
I read this in a book- I am paraphrasing-- The model for a human is to have two legs and two arms. If a man is born without a leg or loses his leg to an accident or disease, he is still a man. And the model for a man is still two legs. The model for marriage is one man and one woman and that is a model for parenting. If a couple does not have children, they are still married. The model for marriage and family does not change.

Childless couples

Posted by David Pross at October 16, 2009 22:24
My wife and I have chosen to remain childless, for several reasons.

We met late in life. By the time any children would be grown, we would both be elderly.

I have some genetic issues that I do not want to pass on.

I've always said, "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em." We struggle just for ourselves day-to-day. It wouldn't be right for us to put children through that, especially given that I come from an impoverished background myself and know what it's like.

There are no issues about grandchildren since both our parents are gone.

Nonetheless, we are no less married.

Contra Malthus

Posted by Julius Irving at October 14, 2009 14:51
Look at the birthrates in Japan, China, and Western Europe and tell me again why we have "too many people on the earth"? In Japan, the government is subsidizing the development of robots to fill as many manual-labor jobs as possible in anticipation of the upcoming population decline. China, because of its ill-conceived "one child, one family" policy is now looking at an entire generation of men who will face difficulties finding prospective mates because they outnumber women by at least four to one. That ration, on top of a predicted decline in population! Western Europe is also well below replacement level. If there is any truth to the assertion that we have too many people on earth, it is that we have an unequal distribution that overburdens certain select areas, but most certainly you are incorrect when you make the statement as a matter of course with broad strokes.

Sweeping assertions aside, it does bring up an angle of this controversy I've not seen: has anyone any knowledge/predictions of the demographic effects upon large populations this new understanding of marriage may have? There ought to be data by now for countries such as Denmark, who have led the way in progressively opening the social contract to include non-traditional unions.



food supply is not the only factor

Posted by Peter at October 17, 2009 20:10
Julius,

Look at energy consumption and how fast we are going through what natural resources we have. The globe can't sustain the current resource usage, and that resource usage increases every year. That's overfilled. This evenbecomes apparent if instead of limiting yourself to industrialized countries and the one already practicing population control, you look broader to Africa and the rest of Asia. The population growth rates also say nothing about the quality of life a given population has. Kids may not die packed into an orphanage, but I don't think anyone would call that situation ideal.

Even in the US there are more kids without homes than homes looking for kids. If you do not believe this, search out and visit the orphanages in your area.

not food supply, people supply

Posted by Julius Irving at October 22, 2009 16:01
I had thought you were making the case that the earth is over-populated, but perhaps instead you were proposing that the population now extant is consuming too much. That point I will not deny, although again I think you're painting with broad strokes where a narrower focus would tighten your argument. At any rate, given the negative growth rate in industrialized nations (which are, for better or worse, the ones in the best position to effect large-scale changes), we may still have over-filled orphanages across Africa and Asia - over-population, if you like, in certain *areas*, but other areas will plateau if not decline, especially metropolitan ones.


response to whoever

Posted by reads elert too at October 19, 2009 18:12
"God has joined homosexuals together as surely as He joins heterosexuals."

The above statement is an amazing misrepresentation of Genesis. What(Who)God has joined together originally stated in Genesis and echoed by Jesus is one man joined to one woman. There is no getting around what God has commanded here. The gay agenda in this respect is contrary to Scripture.


Peter Said...

Posted by Paulus Minimus at October 13, 2009 23:46
"Also, given the cultural understandings of homosexuality at the time..."

- There are many interesting points you bring up in your comment, and I'm not competent to speak to most of them. But I would like to ask how you came about the construction quoted above. In the first place, we don't know 100% what the "cultural understanding" was about anything so far back in history, so what we have to rely upon are available writings and traditions, and occasionally archeology. Secondly, it was my understanding that homosexuality is a modern construct, only perhaps 150 or so years old. Perhaps you used the term as shorthand, but I think a lot of our misunderstandings in these conversations come from the awkward juxtapositions brought about by anachronistic terminology. We think we're saving time by substituting one word for a whole range of concepts but this prevents real dialogue.

Perhaps you could expand a little on this, for clarity's sake?

reply to Paulus

Posted by Peter at October 17, 2009 19:54
Paulus,

I'm using homosexuality interchangably with same-sex attraction here, which is what a lot of other people have been doing. I've done it mostly to avoid turning things into a semantic argumentm, but it is a very important point that what we understand by homosexuality is radically different from what was understood by the terms now translated as homosexuality 2000 years ago. For example, Luther's translation of some of those key words (arsenokoites and malakoi) is not "homosexual".

natural law

Posted by Lauren at October 19, 2009 18:53
Peter,

Regarding the use of natural law I found the following statement of yours confusing at a fundamental level: "It's interesting that you bring up natural law within human beings as part of God's law. Homosexuality is as much a part of that as heterosexuality."

As those creatures who bear the image of God within us, it means we can grasp the structures of reality as well as God's intentions for it even as the creatures who have distorted perceptions through original sin (Romans 2:16ff). We have knowledge of good and evil, of life and death. Natural reason sees in homosexuality a distortion of that reality and intentionality. It is a perversion of God's intention for human sexuality.

Paul argues openly using natural reason in Romans 1, offering a paradigm of human unthankfulness which has led to sins of sexuality. To assume that homosexuality is an aspect of natural law i.e. a part of the creative goodness of God, may be what you are intenting to say. But this is a misuse of the term in its historically understood ethical sense.

Lauren

natural law

Posted by Peter at October 19, 2009 22:07
Lauren,

The "historically understood ethical sense" of natural law is only the first half of your explanation. From there, some try to conclude what you state (below), but that is not inherent to the definition of natural law.

"Natural reason sees in homosexuality a distortion of that reality and intentionality. It is a perversion of God's intention for human sexuality."

This is where we disagree, I think. The only evidence* you have for that is Paul's culturally-tainted use of natural reason in Romans 1 and even there, he is using homosexuality as a description of the outward signs of sin. The God-problem is not a result of homosexuality, but to Paul's mind, homosexuality results from the God-problem.

Today we understand that homosexuality is part of how people are formed, through a combination of nature and nurture. That doesn't make their homosexuality any less of God's gift to them than my heterosexuality is to me, or the color of a man's skin is to that person.

*sidenote on Genesis 1: if that's the template actually intended for everyone, single people and those not reproducing are just as much in trouble

you are not far from the kingdom . . .

Posted by Lauren at October 20, 2009 08:36
Peter,

One of my theology teachers recently said to me "I don't need the Ten Commandments to tell me that homosexuality is a sin". He is a dogmatic Lutheran theologian which means he is committed to the ground rules of scripture over experience and reasoning, including scientific reasoning which takes on the assumptions of a philosophy of life.

Have you have bought into the spirit of the age in which we live--radical doubt, the elevation of self, the rejection of norms, the loss of moral compass all while hungering for a peace that surpasses understanding any of us will ever manufacture in our idol making? I'm not trying to be uncivil here or superior. I don't think you have been uncivil in your exchanges with others or with me. It's just that you just don't get it.

With that said, I do find a strangely clear reason running through your writing which I applaud. Could it be that you are the scribe "who is not far from the kingdom of God" except in this one matter of eternal significance, yielding to the word of God on matters of human sexuality?

Lauren

bought into Lutheran theology, actually

Posted by Peter at October 20, 2009 20:32
Lauren,

Sounds like your theology teacher is missing the most important "ground rule" in Lutheran theology, that of justification by grace through faith in Christ's death and resurrection alone and only. Christ's opponents routinely used examples from Scripture to trip Him up, so Scripture is not a safe foundation. Many times, Christ even rejects the Scriptural understanding of the time that the Pharisees or scribes hold.

In this day, we, too, must reject this supposedly Scriptural understanding because it is contrary to God's final Word for us. This isn't about hedonism, ego or promiscuity any more than heterosexual marriage is about these things. If homosexual marriage is sinful, how can love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control come as a result of such a marriage? And yet, it happens.

comment

Posted by reads elert too at October 20, 2009 12:14
Lauren writes: "As those creatures who bear the image of God within us, it means we can grasp the structures of reality as well as God's intentions for it even as the creatures who have distorted perceptions through original sin (Romans 2:16ff)."

I'm not sure I would play creature against creature here. If that is the intent of this statement. It seems the writer is trying to make a distinction between creatures who have an image of God within them and so are somehow more astute at discerning the "structures of reality" as opposed to the creatures who have a distorted perception of reality caused by original sin.

"All of sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3.

This means that although the image of God is intact in sinful humanity, since the Fall we are always choosing evil because of sin and God also instead of stressing responsibility now stresses that we are irresponsible people under God's wrath.

Upon re-reading the above statement, perhaps the writer is simply saying the same thing as creatures who on the one hand have been created in the image of God but because of the Fall distortion in perception is inevitable in the natural orders. Even reason is so corrupted also even though it is a relative gift for the purpose of ordering life together in an ever changing history.

So if I misinterpreted the writers intent, I apologize. But a clarification would be nice too.

"The speech I would have made"

Posted by R. Reimann at October 17, 2009 22:34
Marianne,
Thank you allowing people to read your insights. May I humbly urge individuals to pray and work for reform within the ELCA and for renewal outside the organization. Our family will pray and support "Lutheran CORE's" efforts for Lutheran renewal in this uneasy time.

Future

Posted by Wayne at October 21, 2009 19:01
Marianne What church are you attending now and in the future?

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