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Open Letter from Carl Braaten to Herbert Chilstrom

by Carl E. Braaten — August 03, 2009

Your Open Letter response (dated July 21, 2009) to the Lutheran CORE Open Letter on the ELCA Social Statement and Ministry Recommendations was forwarded to me. You invite a response to it, stating that you are “open to seeing things from a perspective that may not have occurred to me.” I feel I must accept your invitation, because it is I who was asked by LutheranCORE to assemble a small group of the ELCA’s brightest and best theologians to write a critique of the documents that will be debated and voted on at the ELCA Churchwide Assembly in August, 2009, in Minneapolis. Moreover, all of your criticisms of the CORE Letter are at the same time objections to doctrinal positions I have taught as a Lutheran theologian for over half a century. Your perspective and my perspective are so far apart that I am not sure it will be possible to reach any degree of mutual understanding. An outside critic reading what you wrote and what I am writing in this Open Letter might have a hard time believing that we belong to same church and affirm the same teachings of the Christian faith...

August 1, 2009

Dear Bishop Chilstrom,

Your Open Letter response (dated July 21, 2009) to the Lutheran CORE Open Letter on the ELCA Social Statement and Ministry Recommendations was forwarded to me. You invite a response to it, stating that you are “open to seeing things from a perspective that may not have occurred to me.” I feel I must accept your invitation, because it is I who was asked by LutheranCORE to assemble a small group of the ELCA’s brightest and best theologians to write a critique of the documents that will be debated and voted on at the ELCA Churchwide Assembly in August, 2009, in Minneapolis. Moreover, all of your criticisms of the CORE Letter are at the same time objections to doctrinal positions I have taught as a Lutheran theologian for over half a century. Your perspective and my perspective are so far apart that I am not sure it will be possible to reach any degree of mutual understanding. An outside critic reading what you wrote and what I am writing in this Open Letter might have a hard time believing that we belong to same church and affirm the same teachings of the Christian faith.                                                

However, I think I do partly understand where you are coming from. Like you I was raised in the context of Lutheran pietism. There was not that much difference between Norwegian and Swedish Lutheran pietism. Both branches of American Lutheran pietism supported the LBI movement, to which you made a significant contribution. I never went to the LBI, but I was reared on something similar, namely, the biblical pietism of Norwegian Lutheran missionaries in Madagascar, many of whom attended the LBI. We not only read the Bible every day, but memorized lengthy passages and earned nice little gold stars for reciting them. I got enough of them to fill the firmament. I write about my bringing up in Madagascar in my soon to be published memoirs, entitled Proper Christum—Memoirs of a Lutheran Theologian (Eerdmans). I mention this because, although our backgrounds in Scandinavian pietism are similar, we each took a different turn along the way on our respective theological journeys. I went to Luther Seminary and you attended Augustana Seminary, both of which were not well equipped to point us well beyond the awakening theology of late nineteenth century pietism. As I looked down the road I realized that I would eventually need to make a decision at a crossroads, where one choice leads to the left and the other to the right. By left and right I do not have in mind what these words convey in the current American political lexicon. Most people would regard me on the “left” in that context. Turning left, theologically speaking, means to affirm the theology and methodology of liberal Protestantism; turning right means to reclaim the Great Tradition of historic Christianity prior to the Reformation, including the ancient Church Fathers and Medieval Doctors of the Church. I observed that many of my generation who came out of pietism veered toward liberal protestantism. What they held in common was a religious orientation defined by feelings and personal experiences. Subjectivity decides what is true. The ELCA Social Statement talks about the “bound conscience” as determinative on ethical questions—pure subjectivism. A few of my generation, some classmates, made the longer journey into a study of the ancient traditions which shaped the development of catholic orthodoxy, which I believe our Lutheran Confessors affirmed in a positive way. Pietist theologians were not much interested in the Church Fathers, or the Lutheran Confessions for that matter. They did have the Small Catechism, but that was about all.

Your Open Letter refers to the theological method you use in judging matters theological and ecclesial. They are “reason” and “experience”—your words. They trump Scripture and Tradition. Scripture and Tradition must pass the test of your reason and experience, not the other way around. Such a priority is the essence of liberal protestant theology as I have encountered it. Karl Barth identified liberal Protestantism as a heresy. I believe he was right about that.

In my judgment most of the theologians and bishops of the ELCA today are deeply embedded in the thought patterns of liberal Protestantism, even while pretending that using a few Lutheran slogans offers any immunity from such a fate. You have probably noticed that more than a hundred of so-called teaching theologians of the ELCA have signed a statement that agrees substantially with your views. I would not draw much comfort from that. (I do not see anything in your letter to differentiate your thinking or that of the teaching theologians from any of a dozen liberal Protestants I could cite who speak or write on the same topics.) Yes, reason and experience are in command. Whose reason and experience? Not the Church’s, as defined by millennia of teaching by the fathers, martyrs, saints, doctors, evangelists, and missionaries, down through the centuries and across all cultures, but yours and those with whom you agree during the last 20 years of American culture-conforming Christianity. I do not believe you can quote a single major Lutheran theologian who agrees with your views prior to the birth of the ELCA twenty years ago. Meanwhile, many in the ELCA rejoice that finally Lutheranism is making it on the big stage of American religion, like the other mainline Protestant denominations.

You quote a few statements I wrote in Christian Dogmatics about the biblical canon and the “canon within the canon.” “The ultimate authority of Christian dogmatics is not the biblical canon as such, but the gospel of Jesus Christ to which the Scriptures bear witness—the ‘canon within the canon.’” “Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Scriptures, the source and scope of its authority.” I was trying to express a Lutheran understanding of Scripture, in contrast to the biblical literalism of Protestant fundamentalism. But in no way does it lead to the view of the Bible in liberal Protestantism. You seem puzzled by the reference in the CORE Letter to the “Word of God.” What does it mean? You are right that the Word of God can mean one of three things, the incarnate Word, the written Word, or the proclaimed Word. In this case, the context makes clear that it means the written Word of God, the Bible. I do not believe that the other two meanings of the Word of God diminish by a single iota the authority of the written Word of God.

My understanding of Scripture as Word of God is very different from Gerhard Ebeling’s, whom you quote. Ebeling was not a confessional Lutheran. His role in the controversy surrounding Bultmann’s demythologizing proposal made clear his opposition to the confessional Lutherans, such as Edmund Schlink, Peter Brunner, Ernst Kinder, Wolfhart Pannenberg, and many others. None of them could agree with Ebeling that “the Word of God is solely that which proclaims and communicates the will of God as revealed in the crucified Christ.” Like so many German theologians from Schleiermacher to von Harnack to Bultmann, Ebeling devaluated the Old Testament as coequal with the New Testament in revealing the Word of God through the Bible as a whole. Luther would not do that. He was a Professor of the Old Testament and believed that it communicates the Word of God. For Luther the Ten Commandments were the Word of God. The Law was the Word of God, not only the Gospel. To reduce everything in the Bible to the “crucified Christ” is an example of that “gospel reductionism” that is plaguing the ELCA and many of its theologians. The word for such an error is “antinomianism,” condemned as such in the Formula of Concord.
No doubt you remember very well the two “Call to Faithfulness” conferences held at St. Olaf College in 1990 and 1992, the latter at which you spoke. Three Lutheran journals sponsored the conferences, Dialog, Lutheran Quarterly, and Lutheran Forum. Already alarms were going off that the ELCA was moving in the direction of liberal Protestantism on many fronts. One thousand people attended the first conference and eight hundred the second, so we were not alone in detecting early signs of trouble in the ELCA. Although the theologians addressing the two conferences held different views amongst themselves on ecclesiology and ecumenism, almost all agreed that the commitment of the ELCA to teach according to the Lutheran Confessions was becoming nominal at best. Even the name of the Holy Trinity was up for grabs in some circles.

During those two conferences I do not recall that one word was spoken about sexuality or homosexuality. The controversy over sexuality arose later. In the last ten years it has become the all-consuming issue in the ELCA, arising not from the people at the grassroots but driven by the leadership at many levels. It should be clear that the theologians who signed the CORE Letter (around 60 of them) hold the same views concerning the slide of the ELCA toward liberal Protestantism as those journal theologians who issued the “call to faithfulness” in 1990 and 1992.

That call went unheeded. It is clear that what ails the ELCA, in our view, is not all about sexuality. It is about the underlying pervasive theological condition that gave rise to the possibility that a Lutheran denomination could devote more than a decade’s worth of its time, money, and energy to an issue that has always been deemed beyond consideration by all orthodox (small “o”) churches from the first century until now. Only a few North American liberal Protestant denominations made the issue of sexuality their cause célèbre, starting approximately one generation ago. This is only further convincing evidence that the ELCA has bought into the kind of theological methodology (reasoning) that has always characterized liberal Protestantism. You make clear what that is. Of the four principles of a sound theological method—Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience—you assign to reason and experience the place of pre-eminence. Luther called “reason” the whore of Babylon. And in the name of “experience” every crime and heresy known to humankind have been committed. So we have to ask, “whose “reason” and whose “experience” should we trust? Not mine, all by myself. Not the “reason” and “experience” of late-North American Christians who have been marinated in the culture of what Pope John XXIII called a “culture of death and decadence.” The Germans have a word for the kind of ecclesial phenomenon that results from elevating “reason and experience” at the expense of “Scripture and Tradition”—“Kulturprotestantismus.”

I was rather stunned by the anti-Catholic sentiments you express in your Open Letter, which I can only guess must arise from deep-seated Protestant prejudice. When the ELCA is falling off a cliff into heterodoxies and heresies of its own, it seems rather disingenuous to worry about some positions and practices that Lutherans have traditionally found objectionable in Roman Catholicism. If this is not the pot calling the kettle black, what is? Maybe it is more a case of seeing the speck in the other’s eye while ignoring the log in one’s own. Astonishingly, you utter not a word of criticism of anything going on in the ELCA, except against those who are faithful to the long-standing tradition of Lutheran ethics on homosexual practices. Helmut Thielicke, a Lutheran theologian, spelled this out in his book, The Ethics of Sex, which I still regard as better than anything any other Lutheran has ever written on the subject. If one does not agree with him, one should produce better arguments than appealing to “reason” and “experience,” as though those are the only warrants available for the approval of the ordination of women. When I approved the ordination of women, which I did early on, I did not do so on the basis of my “reason” and “experience.” There are better biblical and theological arguments.

You seem to agree with the liberal Protestants who are calling for “a new reformation.” Historical providence gave us one event called “the Reformation,” but judging from what is happening to Lutheranism in the Scandinavian countries and North America, it is not turning out so well. The “new reformation” of Serene Jones, Cornel West, and Gary Dorien (I witnessed Bill Moyer’s program too) is nothing but a repristination of the old “social gospel movement” that withered under the criticism of the neo-orthodox theologians (Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, and others). H. Richard Niebuhr summed up the preaching of the liberal Protestants quite well: “A God without wrath brought people without sin into a kingdom without judgment through the ministry of a Christ without the cross.” That is still the God of liberal Protestantism, some of whose brightest and most eloquent spokespersons happen to be the very professors of Union Theological Seminary that you cite. It was their collective thinking that you find so “riveting.” If you have read their writings, as I have, you will have a clearer idea of what they mean by a “new reformation,” rather than learning of it merely from a program edited for TV. Their idea of the “offense of the gospel” is not what the apostle Paul had in mind. Nor do they mean the same thing as the New Testament as a whole when they talk about “the crucifixion and resurrection.” For them these words are metaphors that refer to the kind of social praxis they are calling for in our historical period rather than to the salvific occurrence of what God has already accomplished through the once-for-all death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. It has always been the tactic of liberal Protestant theology to co-opt the language of the Bible and the Christian tradition and pour utterly different meanings into them.

I have not responded to all the points of criticism you raise in your Open Letter. I am sorry that you deem it important to pray for the passage of a Social Statement that is a theological embarrassment to anyone or any church that claims to be faithful to the Lutheran Confessions. Why not face the truth: the members of the Task Force who drafted the statements now before the church lacked the theological competence for the assignment. God may well answer your prayer, however, by sending the ELCA into another Babylon, into exile from all that Jesus prayed for in his High Priestly Prayer in John 17.

In 2005 I wrote an Open Letter to Bishop Mark Hanson, which contained many of the things I have written in this letter to you as the former presiding bishop of the ELCA. Nothing in the ELCA has changed for the better in the meantime. That is why I have felt compelled to write this letter. My fondest hope would be that I have completely misunderstood your position on theology and ethics, but to me it seems to resemble the theological errors of liberal Protestantism that I believe are inimical to the truth and mission of Christ’s gospel in our time.

Sincerely,

Carl E. Braaten

Division

Posted by David Pross at August 03, 2009 00:14
Unfortunately, the proper application of Law and Gospel sometimes doesn't seem "nice" or "inclusive."

I believe that the ELCA is headed for a split, schism, rupture, divorce, whatever, of some sort. I think we have come too far to go back. The genie is out of the bottle.

There is Scriptural precedent for this:

"For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

1 Cor 11:18-19 (NASB)

I only hope that whatever form a split takes, that it isn't filled with more acrimony than has already gone down.

Another Voice of Reason Based on Experience

Posted by Rev. Clinton Kersey at August 03, 2009 05:31
If Bishop Chilstrom will not listen to Professor Braaten then perhaps he will listen to a fellow bishop of the Church - the Archbishop of Canterbury - in his response to the Episcopal Church's 2009 convention:

6. However, the issue is not simply about civil liberties or human dignity or even about pastoral sensitivity to the freedom of individual Christians to form their consciences on this matter. It is about whether the Church is free to recognise same-sex unions by means of public blessings that are seen as being, at the very least, analogous to Christian marriage.
7. In the light of the way in which the Church has consistently read the Bible for the last two thousand years, it is clear that a positive answer to this question would have to be based on the most painstaking biblical exegesis and on a wide acceptance of the results within the Communion, with due account taken of the teachings of ecumenical partners also. A major change naturally needs a strong level of consensus and solid theological grounding.
8. This is not our situation in the Communion. Thus a blessing for a same-sex union cannot have the authority of the Church Catholic, or even of the Communion as a whole. And if this is the case, a person living in such a union is in the same case as a heterosexual person living in a sexual relationship outside the marriage bond; whatever the human respect and pastoral sensitivity such persons must be given, their chosen lifestyle is not one that the Church's teaching sanctions, and thus it is hard to see how they can act in the necessarily representative role that the ordained ministry, especially the episcopate, requires.

Tunnel vision

Posted by David Pross at August 03, 2009 10:14
Bp. Chilstrom, PrBp. Hanson, Bp. Rogness, et. al., seem to be so focussed on getting Visions & Expectations scrapped that they fail/choose to ignore the "big picture," both within and without the ELCA.

For our full-communion partners and partner-to-be, we stand a very good chance of alienating them.

In April, the Presbyterian Church USA reaffirmed its standards for ordination/marriage.

The Reformed Church USA is in "dialogue" regarding sexuality, but nothing like the eight years and how-many-zillion dollars we've thrown at it.

The United Methodist Church has not deviated from their formal position that "homosexual behaviour is incompatible with Christian teaching." It was that way when I was in Methodist Confirmation 30 years ago and it's that way now. They will, and do, discipline pastors (ranging from verbal reprimand by the District Superintendent to surrender of credentials) who thumb their nose at this and perform same-gender unions. Also, due to their governing structure, it would almost take an act of God to change that. They are at least as episcopal as the Episcopalians.

And I think we know what's been going on with our brothers and sisters in the Episcopal Church USA. My pastor called the elevation of Gene Robinson an act of rebelling against ECUSA standards just to "make a point." Do we want that kind of acrimony? No? We've already got it...

Pastor also said, with no small amount of frustration, in a sermon not long ago that he's getting tired of so much focus on homosexuality within and without the ELCA that many fail to notice that we have other, active ministries of Word and Sacrament, feeding the hungry and helping the poor. I don't blame him.

The Archbishop makes very good points here, but I would be very surprised if they're listened to. When one has tunnel vision, rarely does any light shine into the sides of the tunnel.

For This Open Letter, S.D.G.

Posted by Rik at August 03, 2009 13:09
I thank God for this Open Letter to former Bishop Chilstrom, written by Carl E. Braaten. I thank God for his witness to the truth of Scripture, and how it is rightly interpreted. Soli Deo Gloria. Likewise, I pray that God in His mercy would open the ears of Bishop Chilstrom and so many others to the truth contained in this writing, that their pride would be put aside for the sake of the church and the Lord of the church. The ELCA has been blessed with this brief time of grace before the opening of their Churchwide Assembly (CWA). The decisions on the sexuality statement and its recommendations have not yet been made--there is precious little time before it is too late. May the One True God who reigns in Heaven have mercy on those who have fallen into heresy, and prevent this ELCA church community from falling off the cliff into apostasy. God has defied incredible odds before: He miraculously saved the Israelites from the swiftly encroaching Egyptian chariots at the time of the Exodus. He turned an enthusiastic anti-Christian Saul into the world renowned apostle Paul, contender for the faith and prolific writer of inspired (God-breathed)epistles which are read by some to this day. Against Jonah's will, God gave the Ninevites an opportunity to repent, and thankfully, they did, to Jonah's dismay and anguish. O, that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would work a miracle today, rescuing the ELCA from its possible demise, and faithfully leading it toward orthodoxy in thought, word and deed. Surely the God who created the universe and all that exists can accomplish this. God our Savior "desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4 NRSV)" May the Spirit of God breathe through Carl Braaten's open letter, and the many other witnesses that have risen up, that the church would awaken and be healed from the liberal Protestant heresies, antinomianism, and all that threatens its spiritual health. Not only have pastors been infected by these false teachings, but many seminary professors who pass the torch on to the seminarians have also been infected. For the sake of the elect, may God set this church body free from all error that binds, entangles and threatens it, and rescue His flocks from the forces of darkness "For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Eph. 6.12 NRSV)" Let genuine compassion and bold opposition to injustice flow from a right understanding of Scripture and a Godly aproach to Biblical interpretation. Grant wisdom to those who hold positions in this church, that through repentant hearts and Thy great mercy, your people would be made ready to use their hands to do your work, reaching the lost with your life-saving Gospel. Lord, Have Mercy. Christ, Have Mercy. Lord, Have Mercy. Amen.

Yes, but.

Posted by Chris at August 04, 2009 09:17
While Dr. Braaten does a fine job here of delineating the size and scope of the chasm there is one point I need to quibble with: the talk about sexuality is, in actuality, coming from the grassroots. The leadership would just as rather worry about other things than this nuclear bomb.

Also, I think the disagreement between these two gentlemen outlines the dialectical conundrum inherent in Confessional Lutheran thought. To err on the side of grace leads to antinomianism, yet to err on the side of the law leads to fundamentalism and some very ignorant and literal readings of Scripture.

The document on human sexuality is not, in my opinion, going to be one of those things we are called to answer for at the pearly gates... my guess is there will be a whole lot of inquisitive conversations regarding hospitality, providence for the poor and excluded, and whether the systematic theological task has served the Church well or not.

Chris

"Grassroots"

Posted by David Pross at August 04, 2009 14:38
Chris, it depends on what "grassroots" you're talking about. Most in my congregation are sick and tired of this and fervently wish it had been left alone.

Conversely, many of the leaders, like Presiding Bishop Hanson (who, in my opinion, projects a disingenuous facade of "neutrality") and especially Bishop Peter Rogness and Presiding Bishop Emeritus Chilstrom are quite clearly pushing for an overturn of V&E.

I do think we will be called to answer for things we have done that have harmed Christ's Church, and this is one of them.

Grassroots

Posted by Rik at August 04, 2009 16:58
And yet as much as some would like the "nuclear bomb" of homosexuality to just go away, there's something to this "What Would Jesus Do" approach. We remember the sheep and the goats in St. Matthew's account of the Gospel. We remember the people whom Jesus associated with, and whom He did not associate. God is at work in believers in today's real world. Regardless of on which side of the issue you stand, not many people these days do not know of or have not met someone who was/is a homosexual or lesbian. How does the common Christian, on a grassroots level live out his/her faith in the real world of today? Just today my August 2009 Lutheran Witness arrived. There is a well-rounded, well written article in there called, "Our Gay Neighbors" by Richard C. Eyer, author of "Marriage is Like Dancing." We know where Bishop Chilstrom stands on the issue. We know where Carl E. Braaten stands. What about the typical layperson, when new neighbors just moved in down the block, who turn out to be "gay." Let's roleplay. What would we do? What would we not do? What would we say? What would we not say? I hope you all get a chance to read this LW article from Professor Eyer, emeritus (p. 21 in the print edition, and not yet online at http://www.lcms.org/pages/witness.asp). I am thankful that they are addressing this timely topic and would look forward to hearing your thoughts on it. Has this issue (homosexuality) "harmed Christ's Church"? I don't think so--in the words of Prof. Hinlickey, "It's not about Homosexuality--not really." What has divided the church of Higgins Road, IMO, is the lack of true unity (not organizational unity, but unity of belief & purpose) and division on how to interpret Scripture--a cacophony of strong-willed positions reminicent to me of the building of the Tower of Babel, the antithesis of unity. Yes, dialogue is part of constructive communications, but the attitude of the heart is yet another part necessary toward effective interpersonal communications and working / walking together. Eg.: Chris wrote, "To err on the side of grace leads to antinomianism, yet to err on the side of the law leads to fundamentalism and some very ignorant and literal readings of Scripture." Thanks for the insult. I didn't know that using the Law and the Gospel together was "err(ing) on the side of the law." Very ignorant? And yet does Jesus employ "higher criticism" in his interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures? He speaks of a literal Adam and Eve. He gives no indication that Jonah was somehow a parable, but rather seems willing to accept his experiences literally. He could have taught a historical-critical approach as he was not afraid to challenge society, but alas, He did not. And yet we can take pot-shots at those at this forum who understand Scripture more literally in some places (not in Revelation) by calling their interpretation "very ignorant." How charitable is that? If "antinomian" is the wrong diagnosis for those who err on the side of the gospel, or if I have misunderstood the position of those who claim the Spirit is doing a new thing, then I will retract my use of the word. The term "antinomian" is diagnostic, coming from anti (against) and nomos (law). I do not see it as pejorative, and if I am wrong, please correct me. Literalism is very ignorant? Does your wife expect literalism when she gives you the shopping list? Who, of all people, might be accused of being literal in their understanding of Jesus? Did Jesus not say, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." Mt.19.14 (NRSV) In Luke's account, he quotes our Lord saying, "Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it." (Lk.18.17 (NRSV). Can a small child grasp such approaches to Scripture as is taught in "Higher Criticism"? Not normally, yet I cannot recall a ssingle instance where Jesus criticized the children and the fishermen and the theif on the cross for having "very ignorant and literal readings of Scripture." There is a place for this issue which is helpful to the church: Teaching us how to better love our neighbor with the love of Christ. I read about this today in "Lutheran Witness." There is another place where this issue has been subterfuge to conceal the real problems in the church which lie beneath the surface. Here, in church politics, it has been driven into the ground by people talking at each other, and little to no progress seems to have been made. This tells me that there can be enormous organizational unity concealing very little unity of belief. The less charitable term is "unity in name only." No church is ready for the passage of this social statement. The temptation to pass it "to get it all over and done with" would be, IMO, the opening of a pandora's box. But let us be eager to learn more about how we can demonstrate Christ's love to those struggling with homosexuality, without compromising with what God has taught us in the Bible. The Good News is false news if it isn't preceded by the bad news. Why would I repent if I didn't know the reality of my sinfulness and my great need to repent?

What would Jesus say

Posted by Ben at August 05, 2009 08:55
I expect Jesus would tell our homosexual neighbors "go and sin no more."

Biblioidolotry

Posted by Chris at August 07, 2009 09:29
Rik,
I am not proposing that there be one way to read Scripture and one way only but I do know that you are deliberately picking and choosing which parts of Scripture to take literally. If I came to your house what would I find there?

And what about Paul's demand in Ephesians for those in the church to stop being children?

Therefore, all I am asking is that there be some kind of allowance in these discussions for the hard work it takes to apply the Law and the Gospel in our reading, expounding, and living the Word.

Chris

Response to Chris

Posted by Rik at August 08, 2009 18:34
Chris, I thank you for your response, and I do not pretend that there is not hard work in theology. I welcome the opportunity for helpful and productive dialogue. I do not believe that I "pick and choose", as I am being accused of here, and I do find the title of your subject (Biblioidolotry) offensive. If you will seek to understand where I am coming from, I don't know of anyone at this forum advocating worshipping a book (ho biblios)--including the Bible--nor putting written words above God Himself. Yet, as someone mentioned in an earlier blog, our knowledge of God comes from Him revealing Himself through these Scriptures. If you are old enough to remember experience Jesus' earthly ministry yourself, and do not question how good your memory is, I think you must rely on the written Word as your source of knowledge of God and His revelation. Other experiences may confirm what we learn in this Word, but we are in danger if our experience contradicts what God has revealed to us here. What about Paul's demand in Eph. for those in the church to stop being children? We should not be childish, yet we are called to be childlike. I Cor 13 tells us that we are no longer children ("when I was a child..."). My concern is when those who seek to dialogue are not even on the same page. No one is setting up shrines to the ancient manuscripts, bowing down to them and praying unto them. But let us listen closely as the Spirit of God breathes through these ancient words, hearing words coming from God, not our attempt to make the words say something new to a new generation. Thanks!

Yes, but

Posted by RR at October 26, 2009 20:25
Chris, your third paragraph leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are taking about. The leadership (ELCA) and those who follow the "document" and its provisions will surely answer to God for their leading astray of those they are suppose to be shepherding. The leadership will be held to a higher standard for their actions and the lack thereof. Sometimes it is wise to read and study the complete Word of God.

Theology vs. Reality

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 05, 2009 15:20
Braaten is quick to point out the lack of attention paid to the church fathers and Lutheran Confessions and basically states that any modification or growth from these is a heresy, because they are simply based on reason and experience.

It is thought patterns like this which are embarassing. If we are to simply view those who have gone before us through a theological lens, and disregard reason and experience then we live in a world which is the center of the universe, we live in a world where women are second class citizens, etc. In short, we live in a world of theological purity but reasonable and experiential stupidity. This may be acceptable if much of reason and experience had not one out over time against this type of theology.

There is a place for all theology, reason, and experience throughout our lives. It's too bad Mr. Braaten's "experience" has led him to such a limited "theology" and has left "reason" up to those who thought the world was flat.

But Mark...

Posted by Larry at August 05, 2009 15:43
You are assuming that reason and experience are on the side of ONLY the Reappraisers (to borrow Kendall Harmon's term from the Episcopal Church wars).

Larry

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 05, 2009 15:53
Not necessarily, but I am saying on a great many issues of importance the reason and experience of the secular has been vastly superior to that of the "religious". I think in large part because the religious of old were much too concerned with acquiring and maintaining power then listening to new ways which God was speaking.

Now does theology have things to say about what new things come about because of reason and experience, certainly, but that is always up for discernment.


Left and right hand kingdoms

Posted by David Pross at August 05, 2009 15:57
Keep in mind Luther's distinction of the kingdoms of the right and left hands.

The right hand is the Kingdom of God.

The left hand is the kingdom of the world.

We are not to confuse or mix the two.

I believe you are noting the "reason and experience" (which is not a doctrinal determination by Lutheran standards, though the Episcopalians and Methodists both recognise it) of the kingdom of the left hand.

The Confessional View of Two Kingdoms

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 05, 2009 17:01
Within The Book of Concord, the Reformers insisted on the doctrine of Two Kingdoms, which dealt with the issue of where authority comes from. In this doctrine, two distinct realms of authority are recognized that are both ordained and blessed by God, but for different earthly functions, the secular and the spiritual. Article XXVIII of the Augsburg Confession states, “That is why one should not mix or confuse the two authorities, the spiritual and the secular” and goes on later to state, “In this way our people distinguish the offices of the two authorities and powers and direct that both be honored as the highest gifts of God on earth.” These statements were not intended to create two separate worlds, but rather to lend clarification to the work of God within this world. Thus these “Two Kingdoms” are meant to complement and uphold each other, as opposed to being indifferent, or worse, in competition with each other.
The “Two Kingdoms” though both instituted by God, are in a traditional view each administered with one of the hands of God. The Spiritual realm is administered with the right hand, which is the stronger hand, and where Holy Scripture and the Creeds place Christ’s heavenly throne. The Secular realm is consequently administered by God’s left hand. In the Spiritual Kingdom, authority comes from Christ and has been passed down through the generations in the power of the keys, or the bishops, who run the church. The role of the Bishops according to the Augsburg Confession is quite narrow as they are to, preach the Gospel, to forgive or retain sin and to administer and distribute the sacraments.” The Augsburg Confession also goes on to state some explicit items which this office is not ordained by God to do, specifically, set up and depose kings, disrupt secular law or obedience to political authority, and make secular laws for secular affairs. Though the Spiritual Kingdom’s earthly scope is limited, the role of bishops and all the ordained in the Spiritual Kingdom extend into the eternal world, and so the duties of this realm gain more importance than the earthly, temporal authorities of the Secular Kingdom.
The Secular Kingdom was also instituted by God as a way of ordering creation, and to deal with the inherent evilness of humans caused by the fall of Adam. Luther in fact describes the following petition of the Lord’s Prayer, “Give us this day our daily bread”, as being inclusive of good government and upright and faithful leaders as being a part of “our daily bread”. In his Large Catechism, Luther extrapolates upon the creedal opening, “I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth”, by explaining that government, and the peace and security which it brings are a part of God’s good creation. Article XVI of the Augsburg Confession emphasizes this viewpoint as it condemns both the Anabaptists and certain monastic orders. These groups advocated the sinfulness of the Secular Kingdom and advocated followers to withdraw from it and create more perfect, Christian Kingdoms in response. The Confession states that secular offices, such as government, were ordained by God, thus it was not sinful to partake in them, and furthermore it is a Christian’s duty to preserve and to show Christian love within these offices. The Apology of Article XVI goes on to state that the monks who propagate the sinfulness of the state and advocate disobedience to it are in fact obscuring the Gospel. According to The Book of Concord, there can be no doubt that earthly authorities and institutions have been instituted by God, for our benefit.

Theology and Experience

Posted by Henry at August 05, 2009 16:02
Mark, you misunderstand Braaten and Lutheranism: Human experiences don't interpret theology. Theology interprets human experiences. Braaten brands the former "liberal Protestantism", while you call the latter an embarrassment. Which one represents a faith that is not ashamed of the Gospel and the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes?

I think I understand

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 05, 2009 16:55
I think theology does interpret human experiences. The problem is trying to fit the round peg of ancient theology into the square hole of modern day human experience. We are now the bearers of a theology which has been passed on and evolved, at least for some, quite a bit in the last millennium. This theology is based on the word of God breaking into the world in new and unique ways; creation, the burning bush, Incarnation, road to Damascus, the Reformation, etc.

Our experiences as humans are unique to time, place, and individual. (easy enough to understand) So our are realities. (Pluto is no longer a planet.) So is the Word of God, (Gift of tongues in Acts, all the books of the Bible until canonization, KJV, NRSV, etc.) The way we view these things also changes and evolves, this evolution is a gift of God, yet it always comes to us through the offensive lens of the Cross.

Braaten seems to think the viewpoint of guys who have been dead for centuries and everyone he agrees with are the only acceptable ones.

Experience

Posted by Cris at August 05, 2009 17:08
I believe it is experience, through the course of time, that led Rome to it's heretic theology, to appease it's followers, which eventually sparked the reformation.
Experience should not determine our course as Lutheran Christians.

Simple Sighted

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 05, 2009 17:13
The biggest issue with Rome was not appeasing it's followers, unless you mean the high and mighty; but in being obsessed with gaining worldly power. As a generalization their efforts were spent maintaining the status quo, so that their experience and world wouldn't change.

The Reformation not only reformed theology, but also reformed the social and intellectual realms as well.

To Mark

Posted by Cris at August 05, 2009 17:42
Thanks for expounding Mark!
I'm new here. I'm the from the Philippines.
I just discovered the Lutheran Forum the other day.
This should not concern me but as a Lutheran it saddens me to know that major Lutheran denominations around the world are changing their course towards theological liberalism.

Reason

Posted by Larry at August 05, 2009 18:15
I don't think that you have to run in terror from Reason to be a good Lutheran. (Not that anyone on this thread is saying that you have to.) Reason is a gift from God that, properly used, can advance human understanding and the development of Christian thought. Where trouble can start is when Reason starts to question basic truths, when Reason, instead of being the handmaiden of Scripture, seeks to become the Master of Scripture.

Reply to Mark

Posted by Ben at August 05, 2009 19:13
Your view of reason and experience misses does not take into account the distinction between natural science and social science. In the world of natural science, it is possible to find the "right" answer--i.e., the type of answer that can be tested and evaluated against objective criteria. In the social sciences, there are no "right" answers--only opinions. Reason and experience carries weight with respect to natural sciences, but not with respect to social sciences, when it comes to questions of doctrine. In other words, we can determine for sure that the world is not flat, but we cannot answer with that same level of certainty any question in the social sciences. This means that those proposing changes in the social sciences have a heavier burden to carry in order to change doctrine.

Seriously Ben??

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 05, 2009 21:08
Scientific proofs have had a great bearing on the social sciences. One being that 40 years ago most people would have argued that the different races have different "blood", DNA, genes, this has since been proven almost completely wrong by scientific reasoning.

There are many other instances where our assumptions about the social order which we held as God given and fact were neither. Race, gender, disease, mental illness, addiction, etc. etc.

Studying our social world scientifically has brought about many changes, and though maybe not as easy to prove, they are certainly trends that are easy to observe, study, and make judgments upon.

On most of these positive changes by the way, the church has been a great taillight and not headlight.

Breaking News

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 05, 2009 21:13
A new statement from the Psychiatrist's association today also shows the blending of social science and scientific theory, this statement in fact is relevant to our discussion today as it repudiates the idea of Gay to Straight conversion as a viable option for homosexuals.
http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7401&eeid=6733667&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt&l=hm

Not that breaking!

Posted by David Pross at August 06, 2009 00:16
My training includes the theoretical and practical in behaviourism, social psychology and some Freudian psychology (though I don't have a lot of use for Freud).

I know of very few people in the social sciences who believe in "gay reparative therapy" as practised by the likes of Exodus International. But most of these same behaviourists also do not believe that sexuality is hard-wired from birth, as some propound. There is an element of choice, though it differs among individuals. Some who have self-identified as either hetero- or homosexual, perhaps for most of their lives, can and do change that self-identification. I'm not referring to bisexuality, which implies a roughly 50/50 identification with one "side" or the other.

So this news isn't all that "breaking."

Studies can be and sometimes are, slanted, depending on the predispositions of the researchers. If one wants to extrapolate a favourable conclusion from raw data, there are almost inevitably ways to make that happen. The Kinsey Report was VERY slanted. I also believe that this that the ELCA has been doing since at least 2001 is slanted as well; otherwise, why have only three of the researchers (thus far) stood up in dissent? Are all the others either afraid to deviate from the party line? I really doubt that they are all as unanimous as the lack of voiced dissent would have us believe. But I've also read that there are graduates of ELCA seminaries who are against changing Visions & Expectations but won't say so openly because they are afraid it could hurt their getting a call.

I've also used a political science comparison in the Quebec/Canada issue (I live within sight of the Canadian border and am acquainted with the situation). To date, there have been three referenda on some form of "independence" for Quebec - 1970, 1980, and 1995. The separatist Parti Quebecois openly says that it will "wait for more favourable conditions" before holding another referendum (meaning: they'll keep holding them until they get the results they want), but even other parties in Quebec won't openly denounce separatism for fear of seeming "disloyal."

I believe much the same has happened in the ELCA.

This "study" was originally supposed to have been concluded in 2006. Only now, in 2009, is it looking like coming to a floor vote. I believe that to be very much the result of pressure groups like Lutherans Concerned and Goodsoil extending the process until they believed the conditions to be "right."

I disagree

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 06, 2009 06:24
No social movement happens in a day. The reason we are where we are as the ELCA is the fault of the Lutheran CORE coalition holding up the work of the Spirit.

As for students in seminary who are afraid, they should learn from Luther, (even though he probably didn't say it) "Here I stand". And the same can be said about seminarians on each side of the issue.

Reply to Mark

Posted by Ben at August 06, 2009 07:57
There is a well-recognized difference between "2+2=4" and behavioral theories; hence the distinction between deductive and inductive reasoning. You are trying to turn theories into realities. AND IN ANY EVENT, none of that has any relevance to Christian morality, which speaks to what you should do and not what you are pre-disposed to do.

reply to Ben

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 06, 2009 09:25
I agree, but I am not trying to turn theories into realities. I'm just pointing to the fact that theories didn't exist in ancient times (at least not as we know them) and instead there was simply reality. Because of wonderful things like the Enlightenment and Scientific Method, we now have much sounder theories on our world then the realities within which people from the past have expounded their "Christian Morality" upon.

We can and should learn from these people, but also recognize the gift of intelligence and knowledge which God continues to allow us to grow in.

Please don't speak of "Chirstian Morality" as absolute, unless you simply say Jesus Christ. And if we want to go that route, than I'm going to begin a movement where the ELCA creates a social statement saying if we want to be a member in good standing with the church that we each vow to hate our mothers, fathers, and other family members.

If all are so dissatisfied with the ELCA, leave. Make sure that you leave your property and anything that belongs to this koinonia behind though. I have no problem with people going home, just when they take what they think is their ball which really belongs to the community.

Reply to Mark

Posted by Ben at August 06, 2009 12:52
You have touched on several problems:
1. See my explanation of theory vs. reality. A social science theory cannot, no matter how much we may wish it so, fundamentally alter the written Word of God. Scientific reality (e.g., the world is round) may alter our understanding of Scripture, because that is a provable reality. Social Science theory is only a theory. When it is in conflict with our prior understandings, we need to look at the theory very closely in order to ensure that it is valid before we alter prior understanding.
2. Why should we leave our property? My congregation and many others are solidly against what you want to do. The closest thing we have had to an unbiased poll regarding this issue in recent years was the 2007 study. It showed 56% opposed to and less than 30% in favor of altering standards. Why should the 30% win? Why can't a congregation decide for itself what it wants to do? Why does our congregation's property belong to ELCA when it was ours long before ELCA was on the scene?
3. The revisionists are the ones attempting to change the historical understanding of our Faith. When one person tries to change the rules in the middle of the game, doesn't everyone else have a chance to leave instead of playing by the new rules?
4. ELCA's model constitution for congregations provides that a congregation can take its property if at least 2/3 of the members vote to leave. Do you propose to change that?

Leaving the ELCA

Posted by Christine at August 06, 2009 13:17
<i>If all are so dissatisfied with the ELCA, leave. Make sure that you leave your property and anything that belongs to this koinonia behind though. I have no problem with people going home, just when they take what they think is their ball which really belongs to the community.</i>

Wow! That is stunning! Same ideology embraced by the Episcopal church in dealing with parishes who want to leave. The "community" -- it's all about the "community."

But then, I'm a former ELCA Lutheran, now LCMS, watching from the sidelines and praying that the faithful remnant in the ELCA find a way to turn the ship around.

Leaving the ELCA

Posted by Christine at August 06, 2009 13:18
"If all are so dissatisfied with the ELCA, leave. Make sure that you leave your property and anything that belongs to this koinonia behind though. I have no problem with people going home, just when they take what they think is their ball which really belongs to the community."

Wow! That is stunning! Same ideology embraced by the Episcopal church in dealing with parishes who want to leave. The "community" -- it's all about the "community."

But then, I'm a former ELCA Lutheran, now LCMS, watching from the sidelines and praying that the faithful remnant in the ELCA find a way to turn the ship around.

Don't let the gate hit you...

Posted by David Pross at August 06, 2009 15:24
...well, you know the rest.

That's basically the "advice" we were given in 2001 regarding our former pastor's invective about "get on board or get out" regarding this "study."

It appears very little has changed.

We're not budging this time.

Also, as has been pointed out, the polity of the ELCA is not like that of the Episcopalians.

Whose fault?

Posted by David Pross at August 06, 2009 12:55
Whose fault?

You did not see the protestors outside 2001 CWA in Indianapolis, did you? I did.

How can you be so sure it is "the work of the Spirit" that is moving this? It could easily be what Ayn Rand (who I am no fan of) called "enlightened self-interest," not to mention that there are other, darker forces, at work to divide Christendom.

This is not a social movement

Posted by David Pross at August 06, 2009 15:31
This is not a social movement. It is, at best, an ecclesiastical movement.

A social movement is designed to affect society as a whole; i.e., Martin Luther King's activities and the Voting Rights Act dismantling what was effective apartheid in the southern U.S.

What is going on in the ELCA is a very vocal group trying to change church teaching to suit what they want, using the standards of secular society's idea of "justice" and "inclusiveness."

Godly movement

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 06, 2009 18:35
This movement (which seems to be much more then a small group of people in the ELCA) is a Godly movement. It is the baptized who have been called to be children of God, many of whom have been called to be leaders in the church discerning what path of discipleship God is calling them to, using all the tools which God gives us to discern God's calling. This my brothers and sisters includes the precious Bible. And if you don't want to leave, that is wonderful, but if in your understanding of the faith given to you and handed down to you, you can find the Gospel message in the opening of gates closed by sinful discrimination to our homosexual family, then it would probably be in your conviction to leave. Similarly, I would expect the same out of many who feel as I do.

By the way, Ben you are completely missing my point. It's not about social science and reality today. It's about the "realities" of those who are the forerunners of our faith. Their scientific realities are much different then our scientific realities. Because of these differences, our theories about social realities are much different in many cases. Some of these have in fact been proven by things like biology, physics, etc. These differences are then measurable by looking back through history with the lens of the present and seeing how they affect the ways that we see God working in our lives.

On a theological level, I have indeed experienced the power of the Gospel through ordained women. If we did not ordain women, or unordained women, this would be contrary to the work of God that is done through them. It is not adiaphora, ordained women for me is a right and necessary part of the Christian faith, as are homosexuals. Do others have different viewpoints then me, yes, and they are free to practice as they want. As for me, I stand on the Gospel.

Which Gospel?

Posted by David Pross at August 07, 2009 00:35
Which Gospel are you standing on, Mark?

What Biblical support do you have for homosexual ordination/marriage? Not tenuous, disputed passages (David/Jonathan, Ruth/Naomi), but clear witness from the Scriptures.

How are you so sure that the pro-homosexual lobby is a "Godly" movement? What criteria makes it so?

Braaten on Thielicke on Homosexuality

Posted by Ronald F. Marshall at August 06, 2009 14:50
Dr. Braaten in his Open Letter to Herbert Chilstrom lifts up Helmut Thielicke's 1964 book, The Ethics of Sex, as the best analysis of homosexuality by a Lutheran theologian. While Thielicke doesn't try to explain away the Biblical condemnation of homosexual behavior, he does allow for ethically responsible homosexual behavior (pp. 284-85). (I might add that the burden of his discussion seems mostly to be about de-criminalizing sodomy in civil law.) But Thielicke's ethically responsible homosexual behavior seems to be just what the ELCA leadership is asking for in their endorsement of gays in loving, committed relationships. If I have rightly understood Thielicke, how then does Dr. Braaten see Thielicke's book to be a helpful critique of the liberal ELCA proposals on homosexuality and its attending cultural Protestantism? Is it just the first part of Thielick's analysis regarding the truth of the Biblical condemnation of homosexual behavior that Dr. Braaten favors? If so, then his endorsement of Thielicke's book seems to be excessive and inadvisable.

Biography

Posted by Melancthon at August 06, 2009 18:40
Dr. Braaten,

You mentioned your biographical background and Bishop Chilstrom's background. However, there was an odd omission in what you chose to remember of Bishop Chilstrom.

If I recall correctly, the bishop had an adopted son who grew up absorbing the biblical, confessional, witness of the saints, traditional understanding related to homosexuality. This son was gay. He went to college. He ended his own life.

You have rejected the way of liberal Protestantism. Fine. Nevertheless, it seems callous and sick to fail to address the deep, even deadly, hurt that those who are "heretical" and "theologically incorrect" and "antinomian" have suffered because of the Truth. Certainly, speak the Truth of the Lutheran CORE, but there are deadly consequences to not speaking the truth in love.

I look forward to how you address this aspect of the bishop's biography theologically and in the manner of Christ.

Respectfully, Melancthon.

Re: Biography

Posted by Ben at August 06, 2009 23:47
You relate a sad story. I am sure that everyone here would pray for Bishop Chilstrom and his son. No doubt both had very heavy burdens to bear. But this biographical story raises two questions in my mind: (1) The problems that drove Bp. Chilstrom's son to suicide no doubt went well beyond what he was taught about homosexuality in the Lutheran church. How is it reasonable to attribute what he did only to his "absorbing the biblical, confessional, witness of the saints, traditional understanding related to homosexuality"? (2) Assuming his suicide is attributable solely to his religious instruction, do you really believe that the church's attempts to discern God's will should be driven by this admittedly tragic event?

I do not believe that anybody here would say that those who have homosexual tendencies have an easy time suppressing those desires. I do not think that anybody here would claim that the church should not minister to and have compassion for those with homosexual desires. I do not think that anybody here would not condemn others who treated cruelly people with homosexual desires. I do not believe that anybody here would claim that the church has always been as responsive as it should have been to those experiencing homosexual desires. However, none of these issues justify the church publicly affirming homosexual conduct when God, through his Word, has unambiguously indicated that it is contrary to His will.

All of us are pre-disposed to sin. For some of us, the sin to which we are pre-disposed is homosexual conduct; for some of us, it is coveting our neighbor's wife or possessions; for some of us, it is a desire to lie, cheat, steal or commit any number of other sins. Some of us face greater challenges than others in attempting to live according to God's will, and all of us fail from time to time. Nevertheless, all of us are called to TRY to live as God would have us live. Declaring that sin is not sin does not measure up to what God expects of us.

Reply to Ben - Predisposition

Posted by Mark Peterson at August 07, 2009 06:47
Ben, your use of predisposition to sin is wrong. Yes, all of humanity is predisposed to sin, but I don't think it's as individualized as insist.

I think many of the so-called individual "predispostions" are what would be classified as anti-social behavior. The rest that you talked about, things like coveting a neighbors wife are something anyone could quite easily be tempted by.

By the way as you talk about living according to God's will and all of us failing from time to time, you're a little off. All of us fail all the time. Read the Large Cathecism and Luther's description of the Ten Commandments. Yes, all of us are guilty of murder.

Reply to Mark

Posted by Ben at August 07, 2009 08:47
Mark,
I have read the Large Catechism, and I do not think my statement is inconsistent with it, except to the extent that some of my words may have been poorly chosen. I do not think the Large Catechism supports the attempts being made by revisionists to alter the ELCA's teachings regarding homosexual conduct. By way of example, see this passage from Luther's commentary on the Ten Commandments:
"322] Now, there is comprehended in these words (as said before) both an angry word of threatening and a friendly promise to terrify and warn us, and, moreover, to induce and encourage us to receive and highly esteem His Word as a matter of divine earnestness, because He Himself declares how much He is concerned about it, and how rigidly He will enforce it, namely, that He will horribly and terribly punish all who despise and transgress His commandments; 323] and again, how richly He will reward, bless, and do all good to those who hold them in high esteem, and gladly do and live according to them. Thus He demands that all our works proceed from a heart which fears and regards God alone, and from such fear avoids everything that is contrary to His will, lest it should move Him to wrath; and, on the other hand, also trusts in Him alone and from love to Him does all He wishes, because he speaks to us as friendly as a father, and offers us all grace and every good."

Gay suicide

Posted by David Pross at August 07, 2009 02:48
A guy I went to high school with came out to his father. His father beat him and basically disowned him. He tried to kill himself by slashing his wrists, but thankfully his sister (I think, this has been more than 20 years ago) found him. I don't know what his religious background was, but I hope he got some help.

It is NEVER Christlike to use the Law in the way that the fire-and-brimstone sects (ie Fred Phelps) do against homosexuals.

It is a fine line. We must maintain the truth of the Scriptures, but never lose sight that we are sinners saved by grace, no different than the homosexual, and that the homosexual is not outside God's grace.

Reply to David

Posted by Ben at August 07, 2009 07:59
Agreed.

Gay Suicide.

Posted by Angus Ogg at August 24, 2009 18:52
This gay thing has been flogged to death. The catholic church has had gay clergy of every rank for centuries, and they doing fine. (well apart from that pedophile thing). My advice to anyone who is coming out: be prepared. If your family won't accept you, dump them. If your father tries to beat you, kick his ass. Jesus was close to his mother, never married, hung out with 12 guys, an a prostitute. Sound familiar? This 2009. Get over it.

This Letter

Posted by Angus Ogg at August 24, 2009 18:40
OMG what a long winded old fart. Blah, Blah Blah. Another theologian who despite his so called qualifications, can't prove the existence of a god, but has supreme hubris in determining what that god is telling us. it would make a horse laugh!

Call to Faithfulness 1992

Posted by Bill Cork at November 02, 2009 23:03
Dr. Braaten says of the 1992 Call to Faithfulness Conferences, "During those two conferences I do not recall that one word was spoken about sexuality or homosexuality. The controversy over sexuality arose later." Just a gentle word of reminder that these subjects were most certainly on the table then, as the "study document," "Human Sexuality and the Christian Faith," had been recently released. The issue of "Lutheran Forum" dated Pentecost 1992, issued in anticipation of the conference, contained an editorial (by yours truly) on this very topic, and the Biblical and ecclesiological views of those pushing the liberal agenda.

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