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Marriage Analogies: A Response to a Response

by Paul R. Hinlicky — November 17, 2009

I am grateful to Pastor Ley for his exemplary challenge to the possibility I have lifted up since 2005 of the “recognition, not blessing” of same-sex unions in the context of Christian community. He is not the only one to have objected, but he has made the best case against it. We need his kind of carefully reasoned and theologically acute questioning, in which participants intend Christian orthodoxy and charitably assume the same of others in the face of apparent disagreement. As pastoral theologians addressing controverted matters, we should aspire to submitting our possible solutions to vexing problems to the mind and judgment of the church under the Word and keep ours egos out of it. In replying to his challenge accordingly, I want to acknowledge that I don’t have a vested interest in my own pet idea of “recognition, not blessing”; it is indeed possible that I can be persuaded that it “untenable,” perhaps even “silly,” as one not-so-exemplary interlocutor put it. Before I deal with that, however, it is worth a moment to reflect on the history of my idea...

I am grateful to Pastor Ley for his exemplary challenge to the possibility I have lifted up since 2005 of the “recognition, not blessing” of same-sex unions in the context of Christian community. He is not the only one to have objected, but he has made the best case against it. We need his kind of carefully reasoned and theologically acute questioning, in which participants intend Christian orthodoxy and charitably assume the same of others in the face of apparent disagreement. As pastoral theologians addressing controverted matters, we should aspire to submitting our possible solutions to vexing problems to the mind and judgment of the church under the Word and keep ours egos out of it. In replying to his challenge accordingly, I want to acknowledge that I don’t have a vested interest in my own pet idea of “recognition, not blessing”; it is indeed possible that I can be persuaded that it “untenable,” perhaps even “silly,” as one not-so-exemplary interlocutor put it. Before I deal with that, however, it is worth a moment to reflect on the history of my idea.

In 2005 I published in the online Journal of Lutheran Ethics an argument under the title, “Recognition, Not Blessing.” This appeared in response to the ELCA’s summons to discuss what was often being described as an “urgent matter of pastoral concern”; indeed, it was one that I, too, as pastor of gay and lesbian persons through the years have had to deal with. In good faith, I tried to filter out from consideration the not-so-hidden agenda of the religious left, in tandem with the secular agenda of the gay liberation movement, despite my deep suspicions about these forces in church and society. I tried rigorously to deal with the reality of ordinary Christian people who find themselves incorrigibly drawn to members of their own sex but, seeking to escape the depravations of the so-called “gay lifestyle,” consequently look to the Christian faith for an alternative life and ask the support of the Christian community for their own “loving, caring, monogamous, lifelong” commitments. Taking such real people at face value, rather than viewing them suspiciously as a Trojan horse for the aforementioned parties, what conscientious pastor would not inquire into the possibility of an appropriate form of “recognition”? The question thus posed is theologically legitimate.

Pondering this, I argued that while such unions manifestly cannot be blessed with the blessing of Genesis 1:26-28 (the very blessing which our Lord took up and validated in Mark 10 in the context of discussing divorce), we have the Christian freedom to do what neighbor love requires in the ambiguities of a fallen creation where legalist rigor can make bad situations even worse, just as the Lutheran Confessions remind us in dealing with controverted matters of sexuality in their own time and place. So long as we are truthful, I maintained, we can recognize such unions, just as we have come to recognize even the “unscriptural” remarriage of the divorced. That was one analogy I drew. Another analogy was this: as the goods of Christian marriage are the one-flesh union of man and woman, the procreation of children, and the signification of the love of Christ and the church, so the goods of same-sex union might in analogy be monogamy rather than promiscuity, care if not procreation of children, and an attestation of the bounty of God’s mercy. As my bishop, James Mauney, argued in taking up this idea, the “strong tree” of healthy, happy Christian marriage is big enough to provide some shelter in its branches for those sons and daughters of the church who find themselves incorrigibly drawn to members of the same sex.

At the same time I also drew my line in the sand: “blessing” of same sex unions would overthrow the plain-sense meaning of the aforementioned biblical texts about the union of male and female, which have historically provided the foundation for the Christian, and especially Lutheran, doctrine of marriage. Withholding this blessing from same-sex unions, on the other hands, indicates the pauline judgment of the first chapter of Romans, namely, that homosexual desire manifests alongside other disorders the divine judgment on universal sinfulness. So long as we are truthful about this disorder (not sin) of homosexual desire, I reasoned, we have the Christian freedom to do what seems best to us and the Holy Spirit in the concrete situation.

As I expected, my proposal was mocked in the environs of San Francisco, but surprisingly was taken up by Prof. Chris Scharen, now of Luther Seminary in St. Paul, in my view the only prominent proponent on the side of revision who has been intellectually honest and not religiously deceptive in this entire sad affair. He realizes, I think, the cost to Christian orthodoxy and church unity his side will likely pay for its alliance on this issue with the religious left; he is trying (“hope against hope,” in my view!) to steer the “progressives” theologically away from the radical (Zwinglian, not Lutheran) narrative of Protestant progress which now dominates in the UCC and the ECUSA and will shortly overwhelm what remains of the ELCA. Scharen in response to my proposal urged that real theologians work together on the issue, rightly noting that he and Hinlicky at the time were but a hair’s breadth apart, the only difference being the latter’s pauline position, noted above in regard to Romans 1. But what a difference in doctrine that hair’s breadth makes. Scharen teaches: God loves gay as gay; God desires homosexual desire. Hinlicky teaches: God mercifully accepts all us variously distorted beings, gays and lesbians too. Scharen says that no repentance is needed, for the truth is that homosexuality is God’s good creature. Hinlicky says a definite repentance is required, for the truth is that homosexuality is a disorder of God’s creation. And this difference in doctrine on the issue of our time is, I fear, a church-dividing difference.

But the ELCA sexuality task force was not persuaded even to try theological deliberation. Like the ELCA itself, it gave up on theology and a theological solution with its “bound conscience” hocus pocus in order to force the issue to a vote on a supposed “live and let live” compromise but in reality in cahoots with a well-financed and politically mobilized religious left. Hinlicky’s proposal for “recognition, not blessing” was accordingly retooled by the task force to appear as the most conservative and least radical “revision” of traditional teaching in the Social Statement and Ministry Recommendations, yet now fatefully linked with the notorious subsequent steps voted on in August. My squeals of protest did little good. What I intended as a line in the sand was co-opted to become the first step down the slippery slope.

Now it is too late for genuine convergence in theology to occur. The August decisions force all of us, willing or not, into a congregationalism that ill-accords with the normative theology of a biblical, creedal, and confessional church. As the ELCA fragments, all of us will have to seek new alignments. It is in this present context that I would like now to answer Pastor Ley’s sharply formulated question to me, as he wrote:

“For all the weighty arguments defending orthodoxy Hinlicky has developed, why does he defend a position so close to what the human sexuality document argues for, a ‘live and let live’ attitude toward those who support same-sex relationships? In short, I’m struck by the imbalance between demanding and fighting ferociously for the normative view, and then all but giving up the expectation of repentance and adherence in behavior through a ‘recognition’ status.”

This is a fair and meaningful question. I have already shown that as a matter of history, it was the Social Statement that used and abused my proposal rather than the other way around. But Pastor Ley’s question is theological and substantive and it deserves that kind of answer. Is the proposal to “recognize, but not bless” certain same-sex unions a “live-and-let-live” capitulation to the Zeitgeist, which gives up the expectation of repentance and new obedience?

I still think not. First, you can test what metanoia (change in thinking) is being asked of those who self-identify as gay or lesbian in my case of the church’s proposed “recognition, not blessing” of such unions. Imagine the hypothetical pastor, utilizing my proposal: he or she will refuse to accept at face value any of the sexual personae of modern consciousness, let alone immediately pronounce, “As you are, so God created you!” Instead, this pastor will want to test and probe and even push. I recall the case of an adulterer I once confronted who pleaded that it was just his robust male nature to bed every woman he could! God created me this way! Only after long and careful pastoral conversation will this hypothetical pastor come to the conclusion in a particular case that same-sex desire is incorrigible, an aspect of the brokenness of the fallen creation that cannot be fixed until the kingdom dawns. Then, and only then, might a pastoral and perhaps congregational “recognition” of  the union of such persons be contemplated. Clearly, the proposal requires those who self-identify as gay or lesbian and seek recognition in the Christian community for their unions to acknowledge their plight and appeal, not to political rights nor nature nor creation, but strictly to the mercy of God.

Note that I take for granted theologically the same kind of pastoral conversation in preparation for Christian marriage of heterosexuals, though I fear how little of it actually happens in our churches.

Note also, if this kind of pastoral conversation seems “untenable,” that only testifies to how far we have fallen from Christianity and the pastoral care of souls, how much pastoring has become instead a “helping profession,” a chaplaincy of the neurotic affluent classes in an age of diminishing expectations that mindlessly reassures us that everything is grace.

Second, you can test what new obedience is being asked of gays and lesbians who enter into unions so recognized but not blessed by the church of God. They will carry a double cross. They will be maligned not only by stick-in-the-mud bigots but also by “progressives,” so-called, for selling out to real Christianity. Entering upon this narrow road, they will testify that they are not in the first place gays or lesbians but rather Christians, seeking not the approval by the church of homosexuality as a social gain, but rather seeking the approval of God that comes to truthful people in repentance and faith, no matter what the cost of their new obedience.

Note again now, if this version of “new obedience” seems less than full, that only testifies to how little we regard our fallenness, the mercy of God, and the glorious hope of the new creation. But bearing the cross in true contrition is the life-long repentance to which our Luther called us. Think only of the lethal illusions of self-righteousness with which the church’s history is peppered when people have forgotten, as Augustine said, that in this life our righteousness for the most part consists in the forgiveness of our sin.

If my proposal passes these tests, what about the matter of a failed analogy at the heart of my proposal, on which Pastor Ley’s critique focuses? In his own words:

“One cannot really apply the analogy [between remarriage of the divorced and recognizing same-sex unions] at all because we are talking apples and pears here. The analogy breaks apart because Scripture excludes the homoerotic relationship as ontologically intended by God, something which even the failed marriage as a marriage can assume. The strong and even severe restraining of homoerotic expression in Scripture argues against God ‘permitting,’ in an interim ethic, a lifelong, same-sex relationship.”

By definition, an analogy contains both difference and similarity. If two things were totally similar, we would have an identity. If two things were totally dissimilar, no comparison would be possible. The weight of an argument from analogy lies upon the discovery of sufficient similarity between two items in comparison to justify drawing the same consequences for one as for the other, at least in some specified respect. It matters not at all that one item in the comparison has “ontological” weight. If the analogy actually holds, it follows that the comparable item also has some “ontological” weight. That would be the point of a valid analogy, which runs A is to B, as C is to D, where and when A and C are the same in the same respect.

I mentioned above two analogies that I had drawn. One is with respect to Christian freedom. Just as we have come to recognize the marriages of the divorced, even those unscripturally divorced, so we could also recognize the unions of gays and lesbians (under the conditions specified above), even though Scripture likewise does not contemplate this possibility. We could do this, I specified, under the condition of a truthful acknowledgment that homosexuality is not what our heavenly Father desires for His children, yet just like any other disorder of the fallen creation it is something, short of eschatological healing, that God can and will mercifully overlook in those who cannot do otherwise. This latter is finally a judgment that falls to the individual Christian, in the context of pastoral care and Christian community that, this side of the kingdom, others can only respect.

The other analogy argues that there are certain goods in homosexual unions that are like the goods of Christian marriage, and that these goods are better than the evils of what is called in our day “the gay lifestyle.” Taken in good faith, the “gay marriage movement” is a socially conservative one, despised by radical gay ideologues, who think the turn to marriage is a sellout. This is a fact overlooked by those who in bad faith and suspicion see only a duplicitous attempt to undermine traditional marriage. My friend, no-fault divorce has already turned “traditional marriage” on its head and created a new heterosexual norm of “serial monogamy”! If you are serious about Christian marriage, and not just repeating the political talking points of one faction in the American culture wars, the affirmation of lifelong monogamous commitment marks a remarkable change in attitude since the heyday of the sexual revolution. We Christians should welcome this movement! And we should turn our concern to the disaster which Christian marriage has become among heterosexuals!

I acknowledge that Christians who intend to be orthodox can in good faith disagree with me about the second analogy. Some will think that therapeutic healing of homosexual desire is a present possibility for Christians, and if not, then celibacy is and should be the expectation of the Church. If that is the position they hold, however, integrity requires them in mission and ministry to provide that therapy and support that celibacy. But I do not yet see how Lutheran Christians, who are supposed to know about “the freedom for which Christ has set us free,” can disagree with me about the first analogy. It is not unreasoned, bleeding-heart compassion, but Christ’s own love for the fallen, the disgraced, the sinner which conflicts with the rigor of the law’s demand for perfection. As Christ was free by the power of the Spirit to seek and find us as we are, broken beings one and all, and to celebrate our new community as the forgiven, so his believers are also free to seek and find, that is, to recognize, also those broken beings who are gay or lesbian and to deal with them, as ourselves, not as we will be some day in glory, but as we are now under grace.

I submit this reasoning to the mind and judgment of the church. I am open to rational persuasion otherwise, as I trust Pastor Ley is as well.

Paul R. Hinlicky is the Tice Professor of Lutheran Studies at Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia.

?

Posted by David Pross at November 17, 2009 22:29
I'm not sure what Professor Hinlicky is saying here.

Is he giving a tacit endorsement to the ELCA's new policies using the reason that we are all fallen sinners (which is true)?

NO!

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at November 18, 2009 09:21
The answer to your question is No. I tell my students that when you don't understand something, it is often because it is challenging certain presuppositions of which you are unaware. The solution is to read and re-read until you get it.

Jet back, please...

Posted by David Pross at November 18, 2009 10:25
I was not making an accusation. It was an enquiry, nothing more. I have had professors (especially in my field of behavioural psychology) give me more than one way of pulling the meaning from a statement. However, on an internet forum, when the person speaking is not available for query, or when the nuances of vocal inflection are not present.

So the argument goes....

Posted by luthersterotypicus at November 18, 2009 07:00
Paul,

This is a substanitally heads and hearts above approach to a complicated issue. But nice try is all I can say. It is in the possibility that we can look at any sin and see some "good and decency" in that position if we close our eyes enough and still stare the truth in the face. (Drug addiction and bank robberies are both attempts to lesson considerable pain.) Others will see this as an opportunity, not to live in repentance as you suggest, but as a position of rights which only becomes a launching pad for more rights. This is hardly what you intended but its what sinners do. They take an inch and add a mile. God knows this. Why do you think He made His position so clear in Rom. 1?

Romans 1

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at November 18, 2009 09:23
Look closely at Romans 1. Paul does not say that homosexual desire is sin but one of several punishments of the universal idolatry of the human race. You are clear about your reading of God's mind, but not Paul's meaning!

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 18, 2009 14:54
"...homosexual desire is sin but one of several punishments of the universal idolatry of the human race."

And by hiding within generalities, the particulars are no longer effective! No. punishment for sin is punishment for sin. Hiding behind generalities will not help one escape from God's eye! (God is not some neutral Creator and Preserver, but since the fall of humanity also Judge)

Any agenda which seeks to relativize the effectiveness of God's judgments are minimally laughable and, majorly, sad. Has the West become so assured of its rationalizing away of what God says in Scripture that now people believe in other's interpretation of Scripture rather than God's word itself? And if one chooses to play the all-we-have-is-our-interpretation card (via Gadamer) I would venture to say that the human project has triumphed over the authority of God's word. The human project has replaced God's effectiveness right within God's own Creation! Feuerbach's conclusions come true.
At least in the academy this seems to be the case.
Meanwhile out here in pastorates, people want to hear from God and Jesus & not in someone's interpretations.

The Real Tragedy

Posted by luthersterotypicus at November 18, 2009 16:43
Romans 1 does not deal with desires for the same sex as sin because, as such, it has no remedy. Sin is addressed in Romans 3 where sin is addressed and given grace. I would not therefore speak of the desire for SS in the general context of sin but in God "handing them over" to do the very thing that goes against nature and shares more with the hardening of Pharoah's heart.

But alas, who is perched in your cherry blossom tree? Not many I suppose. Not those on the hardcore SS parade. They left you. And certainly not those on the Confessional Lutheran side of the house. If the truth sets you free, why are you all alone in a cherry tree with no one to catch you?

Now what?

An answer!

Posted by Mike Bauman at November 20, 2009 15:43
Recognition and public acknowledgment that Romans 1 does indeed "deal with" desires for same sex. Many Lutheran pastors practice the remedy every day.

--Mike

Of course he does!

Posted by Jack Kilcrease at November 19, 2009 09:27
Paul does say that homosexual desires and activity is sinful, since he says it goes against the "natural use." Paul's point is that the logical result of the revolt of Gentile humanity against the natural order of creatures glorifying the creator is an equally sinful distortion of human sexuality. Sin is punished with sin. We can see this later in Romans as well when Paul tells us that God punishnes sin through harding of sinners, this of course leading to more sin. Furthermore, the passage should be read within its original historical context. Paul is simply picking up on a common polemical tradition of Hellenistic Judaism that views sexual premissiveness among the Gentiles as being a result of their idolatry.

1st century Zeitgeist

Posted by Peter at November 20, 2009 07:01
Dr Kilcrease,

You recognize that Paul's passage in Romans is based on a "common polemical tradition of Hellenistic Judaism", which is essentially a 1st century Zeitgeist that is evident in our Scripture. Yet you accept that Zeitgeist as God's holy will for all time. How does that make any sense? For all the concern regarding the infiltration of American culture into Christianity, there seems to be a notable lack of concern for the infiltration of 1st century culture into Christianity in some cases. If we can free the passage 'render unto Caesar' from only having meaning for the 1st century, why not the other passages as well?

Because it's in Holy Scripture!

Posted by Jack Kilcrease at November 21, 2009 07:26
The reason Peter is because it is in the Bible and comes from the Biblical tradition! Just because something comes from a particular cultural tradition does not mean it isn't God's will. That's why the homosexual activitist argument that the "it's just part of their culture" in the first century is non-sense. So was Monotheism! So, should we start allowing Wicca because the Jews in the first century were just influenced by their culture? No, of course not. Furthermore, the cultural tradition of the Hellenistic Jews was based on the OT scriptures. The Bible is God's inerrant Word- and yes I know that your now going to saying "well, the just the gospel is good enough for me"- which is absurd since the gospel is completely meaningless apart from the overall narrative superstructure of Scriptures. Any proposition is non-sense apart from being understood within a particular framework. In any case, I have no idea what you mean when you say that we should contextualize "render unto Caesar"- I think that the government of Rome was the legitimate government of Palestine in the first century and that the Jews and Christians should have obeyed caesar to the extent that that did not conflict with the law of God. In any case, I do think that some statements of the might very well not be applicable to our situation. Similarly, I think that although Scripture allows slavery, it's also very clear that it is not God's original intent. Namely, in the garden of Eden, there are no "natural slaves" as one might find in Aristotle. That's also the definitive argument I think against homosexual practice, since God certainly did not make self-sex relationship in the original creation. We have to judge God's own concessions to sin on what his intention was in the beginning. Haven't we had this argument before?

which biblical tradition?

Posted by Peter at November 21, 2009 11:22
Dr Kilcrease,

The Biblical tradition of the 1st century was largely a stand against the Zeitgeist of both Jewish and secular cultures. Paul's arguments against circumcision and keeping ritual purity contrast very strongly with the trends of Judaism at the time, and yet he also argues that we must be in the world, but not of the world. Paul weighed the Biblical tradition of his time-- that is, the Torah, against the coming of Christ. Luther later did the same thing-- weighing Catholic Tradition, and erroneous views of Scripture, against the coming of Christ. Even Christ showed the keepers of Tradition in his society-- the Pharisees and scribes-- where they had made an idol out of the Torah. Consider all of the parables and witness against ritual purity, about which Leviticus among others explains is REALLY important. The only way to keep to Biblical tradition is to do as Melanchthon advises and "consider the perpetual aim of the Gospel".

I think you have the relationship between Scripture and Gospel back to front. You can't understand the "overall narrative superstructure of Scriptures" without the Gospel, not the other way around. If understanding Scripture is a prereq for receiving the Gospel, how did Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire without the inhabitants first becoming Jewish? Why do we speak of confessing the Gospel instead of confessing Scripture? Do you urge missionaries to treat the Gospel as a mystery that only becomes apparent once the initiate has passed the first test of learning Scripture? The Gospel is a Word of promise spoken to those crushed under the yoke of the Law and that yoke of the Law is not limited to stories in Scripture. It's real, tangible and kills people-- as it's put in Jeremiah, the Law is written on our hearts.

What I mean about Caesar is that you've already contextualized it. You don't read it as "Caesar" but as "government". The Caesar was a very specific type of ruler with a very specific type of government and very broad powers of authority. Equating Caesar with democracy or even all government is a gloss you add to Scripture. It's really no different than reading statements in Scripture about "one man and one woman" as poetic and referring to all marriages, including those between people of the same gender.

Let Your Yes Be Your Yes ...

Posted by Pastor Ramirez at November 18, 2009 19:45
"Taken in good faith, the “gay marriage movement” is a socially conservative one..."

And Nancy Pelosi is conservative compared to Hugo Chavez

Ok, this is bordering on the absurd.

Let's look at this in terms of bestiality. Like bestiality and pedophilia, homosexual behavior is intrinsically sinful. So what about those people who after long struggle with their attraction to primates or donkeys...well let's just use your words...

"We could do this, I specified, under the condition of a truthful acknowledgment that bestiality (original: homosexuality) is not what our heavenly Father desires for His children, yet just like any other disorder of the fallen creation it is something, short of eschatological healing, that God can and will mercifully overlook in those who cannot do otherwise."

The Bible is crystal clear on this whole homosexuality matter. Rev. 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." By your suggestion, you would have the church NOT use the Keys in the hope of repentence.

Another good test to make after you take a theological stance is to honestly ask yourself, "Would Athanasius say something like this, could I remotely imagine Augustine agreeing with me, how about Luther, Basil, Irenaus, St. Paul, or any theologian or churchman from earlier days?" Asking such a question brings immediate and obvious clarity. I would bet my library that they would unanamiously give you a response roughly translated to, "You are off your rocker! Try again."

Seriously, Prof. Hinlicky, from what I have read of yours, this suggestion is far below what I would expect. Good biblical/Law and Gospel/church catholic pastoral care calls it like it is-Sin, and brings new life and hope by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."

Dancing Angels?

Posted by Gregory at November 19, 2009 13:35
Blessing and condemnation are two sides of the same coin. Is Prof. Hinlicky suggesting that there is room to live on the edge of the coin, between sides?

It's like trying to calculate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

to Ramirez

Posted by A reader at November 20, 2009 01:54
It is cruel and stupid to compare the attraction, however disordered, between two human beings created in God's image, to the lust of a human being for an animal.

Glib reasoning like this makes me embarrassed to be counted in your company as a Lutheran Christian.

Your Problem is with God, not me

Posted by Pastor Ramirez at November 20, 2009 09:22
No, it is not cruel or stupid, but biblical. I would agree that there are differences between the disorders, but they are both types of misdirected sexual longing.

Read Leviticus 20, God deals with both in the same paragraph, the Scriptures themselves invite us to see the similarities. So, your problem is really not with me, but with God's Holy Scriptures which provide the basis of the comparison.

Reasonable comparisons

Posted by Mike Bauman at November 20, 2009 15:46
Very well said Pastor. To say otherwise is to use "worldly" words.

--Mike

Offensive

Posted by David Anderson at November 19, 2009 10:18
This is an offensive essay by Hinlicky. Specifically, Hinlicky has allowed the full offense of the Law to come full force: he has refused to call good what is not good, and cannot bless arrangements when scripture will not allow him to do so. In the same way, he has also allowed the full offense of the Gospel to come full force: he has raised before us the uneasy truth that we are all sinners and called to serve one another in love, and that such service sometimes puts us at odds with the letter of the Law.
We avoid offense by oversimplifying these questions. Hinlicky has refused to do so, and I am grateful for the offense.

Offense???

Posted by Pastor Ramirez at November 19, 2009 12:51
"Offense" talk often quickly descends into a race to be the most radically "offensive" without making sure the offense we cause is actually because we are preaching biblical teaching. So, with a little hesitation, I'll try and play the offense game...biblically.

First, if you would like to explain how upholding the biblical teaching (repent of sexual perversion)that the entire church has followed (besides a few liberal protestant bodies who are swiftly descending into paganism) is oversimplifying the matter, please enlighten us.

Very simply, the only offense that would be caused by not blessing BUT still "recognizing" sexual perversion is an offense against God and His faithful.

You write, "such service sometimes puts us at odds with the letter of the Law."

When you pit pastoral care against the Law of God, you thus are at odds with God. You reveal that you think you know better than God, that you are more loving than God-it reveals your unbelief in His Holy Word.

And actually the Law is NOT preached in all its severity when the church "recognizes" sexual perversion. Its kinda like saying to your kids, "Having sex with your siblings isn't right, but if you can't help yourself at least do it with only one of them, love each other really a lot, at least there are some similarites to marriage, and by the way, here are some condoms." Not exactly a ringing proclamation of God's Law. Obviously, unless we have lost our minds, you tell them its wrong and don't do it...ever. You don't take excuses from them, coddle them, or help them into normalizing perversion. You tell them "No" because you love them enough to preach God's Law to them. You love and trust God enough to risk their scorn and rejection because you believe God's Word goes out and does not come back empty. (Sometimes I wonder whether this pussyfooting around S-I-M-P-L-E and C-L-E-A-R issues is really just reflective of the permissive childrearing the baby-boomers were subjected to, and perpetuated.)

And speaking of the Law and the Gospel, the Gospel is that Christ has paid for sins by His sacrifice on the cross. This causes offense. We are self-justifying jerks, this ticks us off, strips our pretensions, etc. No one, least of all me, has denyed or acted like we aren't all sinners.

Not clearly calling sin a sin IS offensive, "recognizing" a sexually perverse relationship that will continue IS offensive, but it certainly is NOT the offense of the Gospel of Jesus Christ witnessed to in the Scriptures.




offensive - correction

Posted by Dave at November 20, 2009 08:06
The name "David Anderson" is a product of an auto-correct function on this website. He is not the author of the above post. I am.

Autocorrect?

Posted by Dave Pross at November 20, 2009 15:58
I rarely use the diminutive form of "David" but I decided to try it just to check it out, so I can avoid it in future.

David Pross

Recognition Liturgy

Posted by Lance at November 19, 2009 12:31
Dear Professor Hinlicky,

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

How does the church make this recognition? Is there a particular passage in Scripture that comes to mind? The church lives and acts through worship--confession, declaration of forgiveness, praise, thanksgiving, prayers of intercession & supplication, blessing--what does it mean for the church to "recognize"? What happens if the couple splits? Do we just stop "recognizing"?

I realize foreseeing problems isn't an argument against, but I'm just baffled by what seems to be a new function of the church.


Excommunication?

Posted by Pastor Ramirez at November 19, 2009 12:57
And to add one more to these good questions, are these "recognized" gay couples going to be receiving the Lord's Body and Blood while living in blatant unrepentant sin?

Pr. Ramirez

Posted by David Pross at November 19, 2009 13:39
Yes. Partnered openly homosexual couples receiving the Holy Sacrament already has been happening for some time at RIC parishes.

In that case, I believe the pastor administering the Sacrament will have a fair bit to answer for.

Sometimes I think we in the LCMS can be a tad overzealous about close communion, but in instances like this I can see why, just as for a heterosexual unmarried couple living together.

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 19, 2009 15:47
This is why some of us from the old AELC could not remain within the LCMS: close communion. The issue isn't about the status of someone's moral life under pastoral management, that management, discernment and judgment is in God's hands. We can only proclaim what is in the Scriptures and let the chips fall as they may. But as folks who have been trained, at best, to discern God's Law and God's Gospel, etc. the importance is that the teaching and preaching adhere to mandatory content of the kerygma SO THAT
the "hearers" can hear clearly God's final word for them in Jesus. Pastors have no control over who comes to Communion (at least as I understand is the case in the ELCA). We are only called to administer God's gifts and leave the condemnation to God in terms of unworthy reception of Communion. Unworthy reception and the resultant condemnation does happen per testimony in the Corinthian congregation but only in terms of how God sees and judges it. We sinners do not have the capacity for such discernment but only proclaim what happens when unworthy reception is the case. Even the so-called Schwarmerei who believe we can know what God knows because the Holy Spirit indicates to us so are way off base because they do not trust completely in God's word in Scripture.

Closed Communion

Posted by Pastor Ramirez at November 19, 2009 16:18
I would suggest (especially since your handle is reads-elert-too)reading Elert "Eucharist and Church Fellowship in the First 4 Centuries".

Or read Jesus, St. Paul, every church Father, Luther, Walther, Krauth, or any Lutheran theologian before the mid 1900s. Closed communion has always been the doctrine of the church, because the church understands that her ministers are not just giving out info, but stewards of the mysteries. It IS the pastor's duty to turn away those who he knows to be living lives of blatant, public sin, and those who publically confess false teaching (which is blatant public sin) Seriously, read Elert, he shows that this is what the church has always confessed.

And one other thing...

Posted by Pastor Ramirez at November 19, 2009 16:33
You said, "Unworthy reception and the resultant condemnation does happen per testimony in the Corinthian congregation but only in terms of how God sees and judges it. We sinners do not have the capacity for such discernment but only proclaim what happens when unworthy reception is the case."


You of course have the capacity to discern open, blatant, unrepentent sin. When a man says to me after I hear he's been cheating on his wife, "Hey, its no big deal pastor, I'm not in love with my wife, she's cool with it, its not sin." And then after calling him to repentence, he refuses to acknowledge, that's obviously discernable. Someone who comes to me before the service and says, "Pastor can I commune, I joined a Methodist church because my husband is a Methodist." Well, there again is blatant, public, unrepentant confession of false teaching. You don't commune them because you care enough about their souls to say to them, "you are commiting unrepentant sin and we don't share a common confession."

You are right to point out that we cannot peer into their hearts. But that is exactly the point when I say we can only judge one on their public confession. It is all about love man, loving people enough to say NO, and point them away from their sin. The pastor is called to proclaim both Law and Gospel

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 19, 2009 16:41
It is not about our sinful love but about proclaiming urgently God's forgiveness in Jesus Christ because within that is the final word of God's love. Saying "no" is not our business but God's as it is God's final business to say "Yes" and "Amen" in his unique Son Jesus for us sinners, see 2 Cor. 1 and 2

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 19, 2009 17:02
"When a man says to me after I hear he's been cheating on his wife, "Hey, its no big deal pastor, I'm not in love with my wife, she's cool with it, its not sin."

Already the man has confessed before you and has received in his person his own condemnation even before you acknowledge it. Even in his own self-satisfactory admission is the fruit of his own condemnation in unbelief apparent. See Genesis when God calls Adam out when he says that in the day that you do take your own life under your own management, you will die. The man in your example may not drop dead immediately (although he could) but his future is not guaranteed. His death is imminent. Saying back to the man what he said to you about what he did may or may not produce repentance in him. It is not your problem..it is the man's problem. The man, as we ourselves, are always totally responsible before God's face which is everywhere. The best way to handle confession like this, at least in my own experience as a pastor, has been to repeat back to the person what they said to me. For each person is responsibile for his/her own life before God. Pastors are there to remind people of that responsibility.

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 19, 2009 16:37
Unless you have read the section in Elert's Glaube ie. so-called systematics, the issue for pastors is faithful teaching/proclamation. and while you are at it read his ethics which also indicates that since the Fall as we have decided against God's command to take our lives under our own management in terms of discernment of good and evil that we ALWAYS come up as sinners choosing the evil and desperately needing and relying on Christ's forgiveness from the cross.

Pastors are administrators of God's stuff and not their own. In the selection regarding exposing publicly public sinners, i believe it is St. Matthew 18, the issue of excomunication is not somehow initiated by the community but the community is already acknowledging that the public sinner has removed himself/herself from participation in Christ's Body, the church.

oops

Posted by readselerttoo at November 19, 2009 16:46
The issue above is that God's command was to not eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We did/do so against God's command and so results in us taking our lives under our own management rather than trusting in God's management. The above needs to be clarified regarding my previous post. Sorry for the confusion in my currently busy schedule...

suppose homosexuality is a disorder

Posted by Peter at November 19, 2009 21:41
Dr Hinlicky,

I think your position remains untenable, because you leave out Christ. If we start with Paul's idea that homosexuality is a disorder arising from humanity's idolatry, we quickly get to a problem homosexuals have with God-- their unbelief. One thing that rapidly gets forgotten, though, is that our unbelief is unveiled in our marriages as well-- every time we test our spouse's patience is a reflection of our failure to love and trust the person most dear to us because we hang our hearts upon ourselves, our needs and our goals. That's our problem with God, and that ends very very badly for us.

It is only Christ's death and resurrection that fixes that problem with God. That must be the source for any metanoia and new obedience, and it is that alone and only that saves us from our problem with God. That healing flows forth and changes our idolatry into faith, as we are now centered on Christ. The metanoia that arises from that, though, is that we want to stay in relationship with our brothers and sisters regardless of our disagreements with them. We treat their needs as our needs, and live our lives in stewardship on Christ's behalf.

So, too, that healing comes and changes what was once disorder into order. What was a symbol of unbelief is now made into a symbol of God's kingdom-- the union of two people tied together in love. That union is a cause for celebration within the church, as God has made clean in the marriage of two people--homosexual or not-- what we had once called unclean. The new obedience of love is made manifest in marriages between two homosexuals, and as faithful Christians, we must bear witness to Christ's presence there, and the blessings that God-- not us-- give to that couple.

Even if you start from 'homosexuality is a disorder', you're still left with celebrating homosexuals' marriage to each other when God's redeeming Word is considered.

More supposition

Posted by David Pross at November 19, 2009 23:48
>>So, too, that healing comes and changes what was once disorder into order. What was a symbol of unbelief is now made into a symbol of God's kingdom-- the union of two people tied together in love. That union is a cause for celebration within the church, as God has made clean in the marriage of two people--homosexual or not-- what we had once called unclean. The new obedience of love is made manifest in marriages between two homosexuals, and as faithful Christians, we must bear witness to Christ's presence there, and the blessings that God-- not us-- give to that couple.<<

Clear Biblical and/or Confessional witness for this hypothesis, without vagueness or grey areas?

Scripture

Posted by Peter at November 20, 2009 07:13
Matthew 5:43-48
John 13:35
Galatians 5:22-23
1 Corinthians 13:4
Ephesians 2:11-21
1 John 2:9-14
1 John 3:9-20

Scripture?

Posted by David Pross at November 20, 2009 16:24
I used the New American Standard Bible to reference these. I don't use that one much, my favourites are the ESV, NIV and occasionally REB, but I use the NASB as a yardstick.

Matt. 5:43-48: Jesus' classic "love thy neighbour" passage from the Sermon on the Mount.
No endorsement of homosexual behaviour.

John 13:35: "By this all men will know you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Jesus calls us to "love one another," as He often does, but nowhere does that have a provision for homosexual behaviour.

Gal. 5:22-23: St Paul's "fruits of the Spirit" passage.
The Apostle lists a lot of things such as joy, peace, self-control etc., but he does not endorse homosexual behaviour.

1 Cor. 13:4: The classic "love is" chapter, which my wife and I had read at our wedding.
St Paul lists the many qualities of Christian love here, but nowhere is there a directive applying to homosexual behaviour.

Eph. 2:11-21: "Strangers, citizens, fellow saints...Christ Jesus Himself being the corner(stone)..."
I got my first set of bifocals last year, but I'm not blind. Nowhere in there is found the appellation of "loving, committed, same-sex relationships."

1 Jn 2:9-14: "Hate, love, darkness, light..."
To paraphrase Yoda, "Hatred leads to the Dark Side." For Christians, hatred leads to Satan. We are to reject darkness and embrace the Light of Christ. Agreed. However, nowhere in this passage are same-gender couplings sanctioned.

1 Jn 3:9-20: "No-one born of God practises sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God...we should love one another..."
I am guessing that you believe that a homosexual who calls him/herself a Christian means they are "born of God," and since they are "born of God," their homosexual behaviour is not sin. That logical fallacy would also lead to other proscribed behaviours not being "sin." I am a recovering alcoholic. I know that there are biochemical/genetic, behavioural, spiritual and environmental components to the condition of alcoholism, just as there are with homosexuality. I also know that Scripture calls drunkenness a sin, and since I cannot drink in moderation (one is too many, a million aren't enough), for me to abuse myself and others by continuing alcoholic behaviour is a sin, which will eventually kill me. The condition of homosexuality is very similar. Homosexual behaviour acted upon may bring physical death, in the case of bodily damage and/or STD's (as will certain heterosexual behaviours) but ultimately blatant, wilful disregard of God's good and perfect will leads to spiritual death and eternal condemnation.

I use the "plain-sense" approach when reading Scripture, and all my comments are of my own wording. I did not use my new favourite Concordia "The Lutheran Study Bible." I've written too many theses with dire warnings against plagiarism to do that.

Peter, your cited premises supporting your stated argument are not cogent in an inductive sense, nor valid in a deductive sense.

your focus is too narrow

Posted by Peter at November 21, 2009 11:33
David,

How do those verses apply to relationships between people of the same gender? What do those verses mean?

To back up one step, how do those verses apply to your marriage with your wife?

One comment on the last passage is that you acknowledge that heterosexual behavior can lead to the same deadly outcomes as homosexual behavior and for the same reasons.

Also to abuse: if those 6 passages that are interpreted as condemning homosexuality were not present in Scripture, or there was a line about Ruth and Naomi being gay, or one of Paul's scribes or whatnot*, would you believe homosexuals could and should get married? If the prohibitions specifically against drunkenness were not in Scripture, would you believe it was ok to be an alcoholic?

*or the Secret Gospel of Mark being authentic, lol

Here I Stand

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 22:09
You gave me Scripture passages.

I read them.

I gave you my take on them.

You say my focus is "too narrow." I say that you read things into them that aren't there, and take away things that are there.

Again, you go down the "if" road; i.e., Ruth and Naomi, or pseudopigraphical books. I am not dealing in hypotheses.

And how do those verses apply to my wife and I? I could say that question is bloody intrusive and refuse to say anything. But I redirect back to Genesis. God created Eve for Adam. He did not create another male, nor did he create another female for Eve.

Hier stehe ich.

I know that's where you stand

Posted by Peter at November 22, 2009 13:44
David,

What am I taking away that is there? I'm not saying your reading is wrong, but that those passages speak to more than just what you've said here. How do they apply to relationships between people of the same gender? I asked about your marriage because I think the way those verses apply there may not be all that different from the way they apply to two homosexuals who have been married for the last 20 years.

I think the 'if's are important insofar as they help us understand what is not correct. Was the choice of the books of the Bible entirely the arbitrary whim of God, or can we find concrete reasons why each book is a part of Scripture and pseudoepigraphy is not? Similarly, can you show that it is important that Ruth and Naomi were not gay? Does that detail matter? Does it matter for many of the characters in the Bible?

God did create Eve for Adam and even said (Gen 2:18) "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." And yet Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:8 says: "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am." Is Paul contradicting God here?


Here I STILL stand

Posted by David Pross at November 22, 2009 20:57
What are you taking away? Whatever seems good to you at the time to support your POV, especially where it concerns homosexual marriage. When you take away something, you attempt to fill the void with "if?," "what about?" and other hypotheses. Actually, I doubt I'd even use the term "hypothesis," since that defines a postulated explanation for an observable phenomenon.

Your "what ifs?" about Ruth and Naomi being lesbians are not relevant. That falls under the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion or perhaps argumentum ad ignorantium. If they were lesbians, the Bible would say so. It doesn't, so they weren't. To read any more into it than that is analogous to the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" or "can God make a rock too heavy to lift?"

"Understanding what is not correct?" What do you designate as "correct" or "incorrect?"

As far as the canon of Scripture, I stand with Luther on the 66 books being the inspired Word of God, and the Apocryphal books "useful and good for reading." I believe the Holy Spirit so guided the ancient Church Fathers and the Reformers that we have the Bible as it is today.

I realise I'm probably going to offend you here, which isn't my intent. However, in some of your posts I sense a sort of smugness, that "I know what's right and you don't," and that those who disagree with you are somehow "less enlightened," or, to use one of your phrases, "don't have Christ." I maintain that it is extremely arrogant to postulate that only the ELCA has "the Gospel" in its purest form, and even more arrogant to contradict yourself and say that the ELCA really DOESN'T have "the Gospel," because of the presence of both "biblicists" and "universalists."

I have challenged you with comparisons to Marcion and Agricola, which have been met with silence.

I have done some research on Crossings and Ed Schroeder in particular. What I have read of Schroeder comes across as very arrogant, as if he only knows the true Lutheran concept of "grace," to which I respond "Bravo Sierra."

You are not going to get me to view theology through such a lens - nor will I you through the lens of (for example) CFW Walther.

My break with the ELCA is permanent. Today we have submitted our petition for peaceful release to our former congregation.

But again, I am very concerned that you are so locked into the Schroeder/Crossings methodology that it takes upon cultic aspects.

Would you care to sit?

Posted by Peter at November 23, 2009 20:10
David,

How would you contrast my "cultic" fascination with Crossings with your preferred view of understanding Scripture?

I'm not offended by charges of arrogance. I think we're all guilty of that, especially when we try to do theology and even more so when we talk about homosexuality. Even outside of theology, arrogance is second nature to me. Knowing that and changing that, though, are two different things. I do believe that I am right, and I don't really intend it as smugness. My charges of "missing Christ" are not lightly made, but it's also not intended pejoratively. That's the measuring stick-- if something does not necessitate Christ, it is not Christian. Failing to need Christ bad news in Christian theology, but not so bad in the left-hand world.

I will clarify and recant some of what I've said earlier regarding the ELCA and Gospel. The Church exists where the Word is preached and the sacraments rightly administered. I do think out of all of the denominations, though, the ELCA has both the right tools (Lutheran Confessions, Law/Promise hermeneutics) and the right environment to most effectively enable preaching of the Gospel. That isn't to say people in other churches don't preach the Gospel, but a lot of denominations tend to have more "official" positions that contradict the Gospel than the ELCA. The ELCA isn't perfect, but I think it's often stumbling in the right direction at least.

Marcion denied the OT and really only took Paul's letters as authoritative. I affirm all 66 books of the Bible as inspired by God. IIRC, he took Paul's flesh/spirit thing way too far as well, and generally taught the duality that this world was bad/the future world was good. I think his position was more to deny that Jewish Law was God's Law. I do uphold reading Scripture with both Law and Gospel and believe that the Sinai covenant, for example, was God's Law given to the Israelites.

Agricola was named antinomian because he denied the proper uses of the Law. I uphold 3 uses to God's Law. First two uses are for ordering society and showing where we fall short. On the third use, (application to the regenerate) I stand with Elert and Schroeder where they affirm both Melanchthon's 'yes' and Luther's final 'no'. Specifically, the third use applies specifically to the old Adam still within us, not the new creation worked in us by Christ.

Back to what if's and correctness. What I mean by correctness is probably what others would say is 'plain reading of Scripture'. We learn more about what Scripture is saying to us by asking why something is not in a given passage. Sometimes it might be irrelevant, sometimes it might be common knowledge, and sometimes there are important ramifications for its absence. Same with pseudoepigraphy. As great as the first part of the Acts of Thomas is, the later parts err too much on the side of docetism. The various gnostic gospels can be rejected because they are gnostic in outlook-- what they imply for salvation is inconsistent with the Gospel handed down in the rest of Scripture.

Saying the Bible doesn't explicitly state something (like you do for Ruth and Naomi) so it must not be so gets a little dangerous. For example, none of Paul's lists of vices include 'abortions'. More concerning in that case is that the Epistle of Barnabas, which is an early Christian writing, does specifically include 'aborting fetuses' in the list of sins. Yet that one didn't qualify as inspired by the Holy Spirit. I think that puts any Scriptural basis for opposition to abortion on shaky ground.

Bad Faith Reading

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at November 20, 2009 04:40
Dear Peter,
I would like to think you and the theological circle you represent were capable of reading another's view in good faith, but I fear that once again you fail to make a good faith reading of my meaning and simply impose your own superior "Augusburg Aha" intuition on what I say so that you can slay a caricature of your own making. You begin with a howler: that my position remains untenable because I leave out Christ, even though the entire argument turns on turning to the mercy of God which is Christ. But expressly I summarize and conclude my case with these words: "It is not unreasoned, bleeding-heart compassion, but Christ’s own love for the fallen, the disgraced, the sinner which conflicts with the rigor of the law’s demand for perfection. As Christ was free by the power of the Spirit to seek and find us as we are, broken beings one and all, and to celebrate our new community as the forgiven, so his believers are also free to seek and find, that is, to recognize, also those broken beings who are gay or lesbian and to deal with them, as ourselves, not as we will be some day in glory, but as we are now under grace." As I recall, your own Elert made the same decisive distinction as do I that is revelant to the present topic when he distinguished between sinners and penitent sinners in the question of justifying faith. As a result of neglecting this, you disregard the forensic nature of the non-imputation of sin that remains in the lives of the redeemed in Christ, to use the language of the 16th century. That God in Christ mercifully overlooks the sin that remains in penitent believers in Christ hardly means that the sin which remains pleases God, or that the disorder has magically become order. In Luther's own words: "our sin can no longer harm us, so long as it displeases us, for our sin becomes Christ's and his righteousness ours." That contrition is the necessary and sufficient repentance in justifying faith in the grace alone of Christ alone, which concretely consists in gay couples recognizing that their unions fall short of God's will for his people as per Romans 1. To claim otherwise as you do is to turn mere disorder into manifest rebellion against God. It is no shame to have a problem, but to "celebrate" a problem as if it were not is a problem indeed! But we can mercifully bear one another's burdens when we are truthful about what those burdens are.
I am glad that at least you can hypothetically entertain the authority of the Apostle's words in Romans 1. In reality, I don't see how you you can finally not reject it.
It may well be that my proposal of 'recognition not blessing' proves politically untenable. Witness only that incomprehending and mean-spirited reaction from the right wing of American Lutheranism on this blog. But your incomprehension from the left-wing is its mirror image. The polarization grows like an unstoppable juggernaut, making me thing of the poet: "the center does not hold. The good lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity." Lord, have mercy.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 21, 2009 09:43
Thanks Paul. You have given a good base for a discussion about how the Gospel applies. Unfortunatly, I find no one else willing to write on the subject. Only law, law, law. What has the Church been doing for centurys that we can't articulate the Gospel as applied to fellow human beings.

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 21, 2009 10:54
" What has the Church been doing for centurys that we can't articulate the Gospel as applied to fellow human beings."

What the "church" does is proclaim the Gospel and administer the sacraments. Application comes by way of faith/connection to Christ through faith and baptism of each individual. Fellow human beings in terms of group ethics cannot be based on the Gospel until the day when Christ applies such in the second coming. For now, the law is sufficient to both secure and threaten.


double standard

Posted by Peter at November 21, 2009 11:53
Dr Hinlicky,

Your argument rests on making Christ into a double standard. The statements you cite are certainly there, but not used to their full extent. This is most evident in your statement: "To claim otherwise as you do is to turn mere disorder into manifest rebellion against God. It is no shame to have a problem, but to "celebrate" a problem as if it were not is a problem indeed! But we can mercifully bear one another's burdens when we are truthful about what those burdens are."

We don't stand outside of God's judgement. That disorder is either part of our rebellion against God already, or it is part of God's Will for us. If the latter, I think you can see how it requires acceptance of same-sex marriage. If the former, it is an outward symptom of our rebellion against God. Once the inner root is healed by Christ, we express those outward symptoms of Christ's healing, many of which are described in that list of Scripture passages I gave David. We celebrate those gifts of the Spirit, and when those gifts bring two people together for lifelong intimacy, trust and mutual uplifting, we celebrate that, too.

This is a double standard in that you think the new community should not celebrate the "problem" of two homosexuals marrying. And yet we celebrate the "problem" of two heterosexuals marrying. Those two heterosexuals are going to sin in their relationship. As sinners, we KNOW that every marriage is going to include sins against one's spouse. Every marriage becomes a broken marriage because it is two sinners getting married.

I ultimately reject Paul's assertion that homosexuality must be the fruits of idolatry because it is as hopelessly entangled in the Zeitgeist of his age as were some of his views on women and slavery and like Luther's own anti-Semitism. Both of those Reformers owned up to their own sinfulness, and inability to escape sin. It shouldn't be surprising that we are given evidence of that as well.

It's also odd that you talk about the growing polarization here. There's only one side trying to polarize things-- what did Bp Hanson say following the vote? Was there a loud and cheerful celebration by LC/NA following the ministry policies? Or where's the polarization in LC/NA's most recent statement: http://www.lcna.org/lcna_news/2009-11-19.shtm

Doing unto others as they have done to you...

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at November 22, 2009 06:04
Dear Peter,
Okay, I am going to treat you like to you treat me, not because I want to, but because you need a mirror held up to you to show you what a crude and unjust method of argument you employ. I have repeatedly exhorted you to argue fairly and charitably by taking an opponent at his/her best rather then play the truly silly and destructive game of inventing caricatures to shoot down, just like many on the opposite pole do in these blog posts. Let me now, for illustrative purposes, do the same to you in response to this latest post. If I were to treat you in kind, it would go like this:
“You vacate the name Christ of any definite meaning, and turn him into a cipher for whatever liberation we invent for ourselves. You selectively cite the Bible when it supports your notion of liberation and you ignore it when it speaks against it. You equivocate with the key notion of “disorder,” and create a real oxymoron when you claim that if God wills our disorder then it is God’s order for us. This not only turns God into a capricious and arbitrary Creator, this not only overlooks the warping of God’s creation under the power of Sin and Death, this not only totally internalizes and privatizes our problem with God into some “internal” attitude or disposition, it altogether makes our faith something other than the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to ‘real, not fictitious sinners’ (Luther) and makes the Spirit not the Holy Spirit of Jesus and His Father, but whatever good moods we feel, quite apart from the Cross. You accuse mercy for sinners, the very offense of Jesus’ ministry, of “a double standard,” since the tension of the gospel of Christ, who at the right time died for the ungodly, offends you when it is clear that in respect to same-sex attraction the Law of God diagnoses disorder by holding up to all us sinners the partnership of male and female specified in Genesis 1 and validated by the real Jew Jesus in Mark 10 and parallels. Well, that “double standard” you despise is the twofold preaching of God’s Word as Law and as Gospel, like it or not, and your Marcionite reading has no authentic claim to be Lutheran. You go off on a tangent on the word, “celebrate” (which you introduced into the discussion and I took up in response), when what we are talking about is not the mood of human beings at a wedding but whether or not the blessing of God which the Church conveys at a wedding liturgy may be properly pronounced over same-sex couples. You are finally open and honest when you reject the authority of Romans 1, but guilty of the same error you attribute to Paul when you write that “Paul's assertion that homosexuality must be the fruits of idolatry… [is] hopelessly entangled in the Zeitgeist of his age as were some of his views on women and slavery and like Luther's own anti-Semitism.” In this you buy uncritically into progressivist narratives of the European Enlightenment. So you prove to be yourself uncritically and hopelessly entangled in the modern, profoundly anti-Christian Zeitgeist. In the process you miss the real problem which in fact you perpetuate when you speak of “estates” as the states in which God places us, without regard to the moral purpose of Scripture’s God. Just this notion would sacralize things like slavery and patriarchy. You are not only incapable of fair reading of others, but you inconsequent in your ideas.”
There. How do you like that? I suspect you don’t and hope you don’t. But if you ever want to debate with me again, you are going to have stop lashing out with stupid and mean-spirited criticisms. These, more than anything, are the source of our polarization.



don't think it worked quite like you intended...

Posted by Peter at November 22, 2009 14:57
Dr Hinlicky,

That sounds an awful lot like what Preus et al had to say about Jonah and the whale 30 or so years ago. God's creation has been warped by the power of Sin/Death, and while the Law preserves that creation, the Gospel redeems it. That redemption makes the disorder order and the unclean clean. Where once there were tears is now rejoicing. That redemption is not just existant in the life to come, but in the here and now.

The double standard is not the Law/Gospel distinction but a double standard as far as sin is concerned. Your arguments imply that sin in the context of heterosexual marriage does not require acknowledgement, but does for homosexual marriage. It fails to recognize that all marriages are going to be broken by our own failures, hetero or homo. It reads like you're willing to consider homosexual unions only so long as the bar is set impossibly high for them. While I suspect you would say we should keep that bar as high for hetero unions, in practice it doesn't happen. I think your blessing language here is the main way in which such a double standard is excluded.

Your argument from Genesis is trying to extrapolate from very specific circumstances to generalities. Both in Genesis 1 and in Mark 10, the issue at hand is one specific man with one specific woman. It would be like arguing that our government must be based on the Roman Empire, because Christ commanded us to "Render unto Caesar". Also, do you uphold Levirate marriage, which Christ also accepts in Matthew 22:24-27?

I don't think I'm buying into the modern Zeitgeist nor the Enlightment narratives in my reading of Romans. If we deny that culture had any role in Scripture, we'd still be following the Temple system. If anything, Galatians and Romans are long arguments about how the Word of God transcends any one culture and is not contingent on those cultural practices.

To be honest, the biggest difference I noticed in your writing when you tried "holding a mirror up for me" was the long string of run-ons. If I do have that many run-ons in my posts, I apologize. It also seemed a bit more ranty than the usual patronizing, but otherwise not really all that different. So far as I can tell, a "good faith" reading of what you write means total agreement with you or a possible disagreement on a minor point, since anything else is "lashing out with stupid and mean-spirited criticisms". Or is it that suggestion that your argument contradicts the Gospel that offends you so?


Tu quoque

Posted by David Pross at November 22, 2009 20:58
>>So far as I can tell, a "good faith" reading of what you write means total agreement with you or a possible disagreement on a minor point, since anything else is "lashing out with stupid and mean-spirited criticisms"<<

Peter, the same could be said of your interpretation of "the Gospel."

Thank you for your essay, but I'm not convinced

Posted by James Gustafson at November 20, 2009 10:02
~“Withholding this blessing from same-sex unions, on the other hands, indicates the pauline judgment of the first chapter of Romans, namely, that homosexual desire manifests alongside other disorders the divine judgment on universal sinfulness. So long as we are truthful about this disorder (not sin) of homosexual desire, I reasoned, we have the Christian freedom to do what seems best to us and the Holy Spirit in the concrete situation.”
Withholding the blessing does adhere to the Pauline judgment, but when you proclaim the condition as “a disorder (not sin)”, you use the common contemporary understanding and generally accepted description of this condition for your foundation and further exegesis of the scripture and what our scriptural response to this condition should be. But where is the scriptural backing for such a position to be held in the first place? If unbound heterosexual desire and lust is both the normal human condition and is nevertheless still a sinful act/condition, not a disorder, why would homosexual desire and lust be a disorder and not a sin? If what applies to heterosexuals in Mt 5:28 “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Why would it not also apply to homosexual desire and lust? Especially since these are the same terminology that Paul used to describe the sinfulness of that condition in Romans 1? Romans 1:24, “Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity”. Then if that foundational statement is in error…

~“But what a difference in doctrine that hair’s breadth makes. Scharen teaches: God loves gay as gay; God desires homosexual desire. Hinlicky teaches: God mercifully accepts all us variously distorted beings, gays and lesbians too. Scharen says that no repentance is needed, for the truth is that homosexuality is God’s good creature. Hinlicky says a definite repentance is required, for the truth is that homosexuality is a disorder of God’s creation. And this difference in doctrine on the issue of our time is, I fear, a church-dividing difference.”
It is a church dividing difference, and as such, the attempt to reconcile the two sides through compromise may be untenable, as you have also asked elsewhere, but another point to consider is that it is not possible for both interpretations to be equally correct. The church body can not preach both positions with equal vigor and remain a single church body.

~“Instead, this pastor will want to test and probe and even push. I recall the case of an adulterer I once confronted who pleaded that it was just his robust male nature to bed every woman he could! God created me this way! Only after long and careful pastoral conversation will this hypothetical pastor come to the conclusion in a particular case that same-sex desire is incorrigible, an aspect of the brokenness of the fallen creation that cannot be fixed until the kingdom dawns. Then, and only then, might a pastoral and perhaps congregational “recognition” of the union of such persons be contemplated.”
It seems to me that here that you are arguing against your own position when you present the adulterer’s argument. How is his argument not the same as the homosexual’s argument ? The position of the church can never compromise with his position so how is his example beneficial to compromising in this situation? I compare specifically the as yet unmarried homosexual vs. the as yet unmarried heterosexual. The physical desire and lust of both being equally consuming and unjust in God’s commandments, our sinful condition IS incorrigible, the aspect of the brokenness of us the fallen creature, and we will not be fixed until the kingdom comes, I agree. The hypothetical Pastor’s position then can not be to push and probe to find the depths of our desire for the sin, because all sin is damning when we concede to it outside of repentance. Rather, it seems to me, the Pastor’s position must be one of explaining the sin and our sinful condition and why our condition must be repented of and battled against (even though we can not win that battle until Christ returns).

~“My friend, no-fault divorce has already turned “traditional marriage” on its head and created a new heterosexual norm of “serial monogamy”! If you are serious about Christian marriage, and not just repeating the political talking points of one faction in the American culture wars, the affirmation of lifelong monogamous commitment marks a remarkable change in attitude since the heyday of the sexual revolution. We Christians should welcome this movement! And we should turn our concern to the disaster which Christian marriage has become among heterosexuals!”
This does not seem to me to be a convincing argument for accepting more wrong, rather, it seems to be a better argument for not continuing in accepting no-fault divorce as readily as we have been doing. We do need to welcome the movement towards committed lifelong marriages, but we do not benefit by redefining what that marriage is to achieve that goal.

~“But I do not yet see how Lutheran Christians, who are supposed to know about “the freedom for which Christ has set us free,” can disagree with me about the first analogy. It is not unreasoned, bleeding-heart compassion, but Christ’s own love for the fallen, the disgraced, the sinner which conflicts with the rigor of the law’s demand for perfection. As Christ was free by the power of the Spirit to seek and find us as we are, broken beings one and all, and to celebrate our new community as the forgiven, so his believers are also free to seek and find, that is, to recognize, also those broken beings who are gay or lesbian and to deal with them, as ourselves, not as we will be some day in glory, but as we are now under grace.”
Without a doubt I trust in the Lord that the broken beings who are gay or lesbian can be and are dealt with the same as ourselves, through Christ’s love for the fallen and disgraced sinner whose condition conflicts with the law’s demand for perfection. They are no better or worse, no different than the forgiven sinner who continues to be tempted by pornography, no less sanctified then the person who continues to fall prey to behavioral sexual addictions of any kind, no better or worse than those sainted souls who are tempted and disordered with sexual desires of the self-deprecating kind even within the confines of their mutually accepting spouse. We are not blessed and free to act out all sexual desire, not even in the confines of a Christian marriage covenant, not all sexual fantasy and fancy is healthy or beneficial or God approved for conforming to God’s desire for us, and in like manner, the sinful condition of the homosexual acts and desires is not lessened simply by confining those acts to a single and willing partner.


comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 20, 2009 11:36
The use of the concept of someone who is "broken" as sinner presupposes that that person can be repaired. This is not a concept that agrees with Scripture. Sin is rebellion against God. Sinners are forgiven based on Christ's merits not on some inherent change which God gives to us in a grace that we retain. This is the great difference between confessional Lutheran teaching and official Roman Catholic (as well as Reformed)
teaching. The symptoms of sin as rebellion are pride and unbelief in our situation as sinners. We live in a fallen world as fallen creatures unable to escape our fate as sinners: non posse non peccare of St. Augustine. Unless we venture to explore the depths of our rebellion as testified in Genesis 3, we do not magnify Christ's benefits for us which are unique to the new covenant.
The current de-emphasis in Christ as Savior in the vast majority of so-called Christian denominations testifies to people unwilling to explore biblical understanding of fallen creatures. We act as if we have persevered in our redemption as people God loves when in reality we are people who are only regarded this way because of what Christ has done for us in his death and resurrection. In our "throwing the baby out with the bath" as we have done with Christ, we have proclaimed our own situation as redeemed sinners and thrown Christ away.

As to the issue of "disorder" this is similar to what was said above about "brokenness". Disorder is what creation tends toward since the Fall. In fact, because of the Fall evil is also a force to be reckoned with. Evil is a created order which works against order. There is a unique force and power which operates within
the order of evil. The order of evil doesn't just produce disorder but it also uses God's good creation and turns it against itself. This is the demonic in action.

Presupposition of brokenness

Posted by David Pross at November 20, 2009 16:28
Not necessarily.

It is possible for something to be broken beyond repair.

If I take my electric guitar and do as Pete Townshend did back in the '70s and smash it to bits, or torch it as Jimi Hendrix did in the '60s, it is broken beyond repair.

We are broken beyond earthly repair, and have been ever since "Did God really say...".

This is where we differ from the "Holiness" churches (Nazarene, Wesleyan), who do believe in entire sanctification in this life.

Only the Master Repairer can "fix" us, which is not complete until we enter the Church Triumphant.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 20, 2009 20:18
Many of you guys are great discussing law until your green in the face. Discussing and limiting your discussion to Romans one is easy for you. But try this. How does the full extend of the Gospel apply to those you can only see as law breakers? Now you have to read the rest of Romans where Paul and Christ's love for all of us sinners is discussed. Try discussing this Gospel on and on and on. It might be more helpful than the past three days of posts. Try this, How does the Gospel appy to homosexuals that want to be married.

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 20, 2009 21:12
Marriage is a God created estate only for one man and one woman. There is no such thing as an estate for same sex unions. This desire for recognition of same sex union as marriage is a politically motivated agenda. Yes, it is possible for the political realm to vote to recognize same sex union for the express purpose for tax benefit, etc. But according to God's law the estate of marriage cannot be "tweaked" to include what we want it to include. The estate of marriage is beyond human created designs because God's design in the natural orders are beyond our manipulation.

Our existence as sinners cannot change the above no matter how much public opinion or majority vote would qualify it. Sinners under God's law are subject to justice and retributive action and this is where the state/civil order have their validation.

In God's mercy, sinners have been given a Savior who has forgiven their sin ONLY through his death on a cross. Christ crucified is the end of the law. Under the law there is no forgiveness only justice and retribution. Forgiveness is primarily a benefit of Christ's death and a mark of the Gospel. Christ's forgiveness is unique because it is for you as well as for the rest of the world. Christ is a Living Savior since his Resurrection and Ascension. His forgiveness for sinners (you and me) can never be emptied because death no longer has dominion over Jesus per Romans 6. Faith in this living Savior makes you righteous because he is righteousness for you. The Sacrament of Holy Baptism is the gateway into this living relationship...again, per Romans 6.

estates are where we stand

Posted by Peter at November 20, 2009 23:41
Marriage is clearly not 'one man/one woman' in Scripture. How many wives did Jacob have? Why does 1 Timothy recommend that bishops (not all the faithful) be the husband of no more than 1 wife? Estates are literally 'where I stand', and homosexuals stand in the place of same-sex attraction. It is beyond our control or ability to define-- look at the horrors of "rehabilitation" for homosexuals. The estates are for everyone, and that must include homosexuals. That aspect of God's Law applies to them as much as to anyone else. Their failure to live up to it is the same as our failure to live up to the Law regarding our treatment of our spouses.

Sexual desire is not proven itself to being regularly rehabitable

Posted by James Gustafson at November 21, 2009 00:31
The horrors of rehabilitation? You mean like in the same way that society and psychology and psychiatry have utterly failed to find a method of rehabilitating anyones sexual lusts and fantasy? Even the criminal sexual predators where all of the governments resources have been assembled to change their sexual behaviors have failed to convincingly change the sexual appetites of the individuals? How long does it take to remove a persons desire for pornography? How many years does it take to remove a persons desire for sadomasochism or people that like to be punished or humiliated or belittled in their sexual relationship with their spouse? How successful have we been at rehabilitating any sexual deviancy? We have not. The aspect of Gods Law DOES apply to them as much as it does to anyone else, so quit trying to change the rules just for them, they are already us, they are not different than us, they are not separate from us, they are us and they are included.

Sexual deviancy extremely hard to rehabilitate

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 00:47
It is very, very difficult to "cure" sexual deviancy.

In many cases the best, most humane, thing to do is to either hospitalise or incarcerate the offender for his/her own protection and the protection of society.

You would not believe how many sexual offenders say "I just can't stop!" - and MEAN it.

Something goes on in the brain that we don't yet understand; but fMRI scans do very often show differences in the brain patterns of sexual offenders.

Again, grey areas

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 00:44
You do not find Scripture supporting your hypothesis that "estates" include homosexual marriage, or homosexual relationship of any kind.

As to "rehabilitation" for homosexuals, this is something I DO know a bit about.

It is possible, though not in all cases.

I am not going to write my doctoral thesis here (plenty of time for that), but suffice it to say that homosexuality has to be dealt with (from a behavioural standpoint) on a case-by-case basis.

As I've said previously, there is no compelling proof for or against homosexuality being innate. I'm not going to get into what happens in the formation of the hippocampus, hypothalamus, etc., in the womb or the "fingerprint" behavioural situations that happen in the first five years of life, except to say that they can significantly mould a person for good or ill.

Many people go through stages of being attracted to both sexes. Sometimes it remains as such, but usually it resolves in favour of heterosexual attraction. I have rarely, if ever, seen cases of true bisexuality. Usually hetero- or homo- is dominant.

And, that can be changed in some cases. Sometimes it does so on its own. I won't comment on any specific case studies, but two celebrities self-identifying as homosexual, Anne Heche (former partner of Ellen DeGeneres) and Julie Cypher (former partner of Melissa Etheridge) have reverted to heterosexuality and are now in heterosexual marriages.

The late Freddie Mercury of Queen was heterosexual in the early days of that band. His former bandmate, guitarist Brian May, said that "if he were gay, believe me, we would have known, since we all lived together in the early days." May also said that Mercury was "pushed in a gay direction" by someone involved with the band in the mid-to-late '70s (he was also molested by an older schoolboy while at boarding school in India). Of course, Mercury ended up very promiscuously homosexual (one quote: "Sometimes I wake up in the morning and wonder who I'm going to f*** today"), which cost him his life and robbed the world of a great talent.

At an all-female college where I was on staff for three years I saw a lot of "situational lesbianism" (also known as "lesbians until graduation"). After leaving the environment, which had a lot of pressure for these young women to experiment with lesbian behaviour, most reverted to heterosexual orientation.

Do I deny that there are indeed "horrors" involved with some types of "rehabilitation?" No. Some of the case studies on that I have read about are very bad, often ending in suicide.

But it is a logical fallacy to think that all forms of therapy dealing with orientation (I don't like the word "rehabilitation" professionally) are fraudulent, and that homosexuality or bisexuality are immutable.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 21, 2009 09:26
David: Still no Gospel after all these months. Give it a try David.

Here I stand

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 21:59
And if "Gospel" means just agreeing with you, you are going to be disappointed.

Clinical analysis

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 22:12
I am speaking from the point of view of a clinician making an analysis.

That may well seem harsh and detached, and sometimes it is.

No apologies.

plenty of grey areas

Posted by Peter at November 21, 2009 12:28
This is one of the problems with being lazy. Often I will talk about homosexuality, and specifically mean in the context of marriage, though it is often easier to say 'homosexuality' instead of 'homosexual marriage', etc. I don't mean to imply that there is either homosexuality or heterosexuality with nothing in between. Gender identity is certainly very complex, but the pastoral care it requires is not as easy as 'you serve Christ by fulfilling this gender role'. Rather, it must be asked, 'how can you serve Christ in your gender role'. I am not arguing that any and all acts of homosexuality are inherently unsinful (in fact, just like acts of heterosexuality, most of them probably ARE sinful). What I am arguing is that it isn't your gender identity or that of your partner that makes one sinful. Rather, it is how you live that identity out. If you are promiscuous, it doesn't matter if you are hetero or homo or somewhere in between. Would it be worse for me to sleep with 3 women or 2 women and another man? It's sin either way. If you have sex with your partner of either gender before you are ready to be married, you sin either way. If you fail to treat your partner with the love Christ bears for the church, you sin regardless of your partner's gender identity. You and your partner can hang your hearts on money, wealth, power, status, feeling good or any of the other idols in our culture regardless of gender identity.

There are bisexuals for whom it is better (in the sense that all involved would say so) to be with someone of the opposite gender instead of someone of the same gender, and perhaps that might be considered "rehabilitation". However, I'm speaking specifically of those organizations that exist that essentially try to torture people into not being gay.

Godpel

Posted by John at November 21, 2009 09:19
No Gospel here Peter, try again,

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 21, 2009 10:58
Who says the polygamists Abraham and Jacob, etc. in the Bible were righteous in terms of their ethical life? God chose these people to perpetuate God's promises not based on their ethics but based on God's choice of them and God's own purposes.

how did they stand before God's judgement?

Posted by Peter at November 21, 2009 12:00
There's no 'righteous in only part of your life'. It's all or nothing, since God judges us in totality of being. 1 Timothy especially suggests that those living in new life in Christ could also simultaneously have multiple wives. I don't personally know anyone who could simultaneously trust Christ and hold multiple wives, but that mode of marriage is endorsed by Scripture.

HETEROsexual Polygamy

Posted by Gregory at November 21, 2009 16:57
The 'polygamy' argument is (for lack of a better term) a straw man, and a distraction. Polygamy in the Bible is always heterosexual, again going back to the created -- procreative -- order.

not a straw man

Posted by Peter at November 22, 2009 13:21
Gregory,

It's not a strawman because it knocks down this idea that marriage was ordained by God from the beginning to the end of time that it must absolutely be exactly one man and one woman and nothing else. Marriage is a left-hand institution and the important point about polygamy in Scripture is that Scripture shows that marriage is a malleable institution. That's part of why it isn't a sacrament.

...

Posted by James Gustafson at November 24, 2009 00:35
Clearly you argue with Jesus himself when you say "it knocks down this idea that marriage was ordained by God from the beginning to the end of time that it must absolutely be exactly one man and one woman". Jesus says different than you say. Jesus says in Mark 10:6-9. "But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

You use old testament examples of polygamy to argue with Jesus himself? Utter debauchery.

Perhaps next you'll use the example of David having Bathsheba's husband killed as an example that it's okay for us to do off our neighbor to steal his wife too? Or perhaps you'll realize the error of your example, not everything in the OT is meant to be emulated. As a matter of fact, most of the OT stories are not meant to be emulated. They were human, they were loved by God, that doesn't make them well behaved humans. David included, a man after God's own heart, but a man God wouldn't allow to build his temple for the blood on his hands. Solomon, a wisdom gift by God, but an abstract failure in worshiping only one God. The OT is full of failures and what not to do, you trying to use it to show that Jesus misunderstood God’s intention at creation goes too far.

Romans 16:18
”For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.”

amendment

Posted by James Gustafson at November 24, 2009 08:16
In my above post should have made it more clear that I am speaking against the argument position, not the person of Peter, I do not believe that the argument originated with Peter, rather, that Peter as succumbed to the argument that I am speaking against. After re-reading it, I realize that I didn't make that clear and a reasonable person might think that I was speaking only to Peter. My apologies. My position remains steadfast though that the argument against Jesus' understanding of God's intention at the time of creation is fundamentally flawed and anti-scriptural.

Origination of argument

Posted by David Pross at November 25, 2009 13:09
James, I second this. It can sound like in my own exchanges with Peter that I'm having a go at him, and that's not it.

What I am concerned about is that this Crossings/Ed Schroeder frame of mind that he consistently argues from has sucked him in.

Cultic? Without seeing the situation directly, as in participant observation (standard methodology for many social psychologists) I'm cautious about saying that there is a straight yes/no answer on that.

However, there are aspects of Peter's behaviour on here that would lead me in part toward such a conclusion (though wording on an internet board is no accurate indication of behaviour).

Labelled, "canned" answers - "the Promise," "the Augsburg Aha," and a very nebulous definition of "the Gospel," which seems to shift according to the question at hand. I have observed similar conduct from Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, where they give answers almost by rote as their elders have given them.

The "I'm right" attitude - In some cases it's just plain bullheadedness (and I have my own share of that), but in this case Peter admits his own "I'm right" attitude, though, to his credit, he says he doesn't mean it to come off as smug or arrogant.

The unwillingness to question what he has been taught - I have asked him repeatedly to consider the possibility that Crossings may be incorrect, which he has not answered.

The seemingly uncritical trust in an institution - his dogged insistence that the ELCA IS RIGHT (though, to his credit, he has modified this somewhat) in matters of grace, Biblical hermeneutics and "the Gospel," and other church bodies are lacking in "the Gospel" in "their public statements," and that ELCA members who leave will somehow bring "grace" to the churches they join.

Regarding Crossings/Schroeder itself - there is somewhat disturbing precedent in that Schroeder fought to keep Robert Gagnon from speaking at Concordia Seminary St Louis in 2004:

http://robgagnon.net/EdSchroeder.htm

OK, none of this is intended to be diagnostic, and I don't have a copy of the latest DSM-IV open in front of me...just a thumbnail sketch of what I have observed of the Schroeder/Crossings methodology. I had heard nothing of this organisation until Peter brought it up on this board, despite my former ELCA pastor being Seminex.

My own observation, correct or not, is that Schroeder still has a considerable axe to grind against the LCMS.

Law AND Gospel. Law AND Gospel. Law AND Gospel. Law AND Gospel.

Posted by David Pross at November 20, 2009 22:08
Law AND Gospel are intrinsic to Lutheran theology. They cannot be separated or blended.

Without Law, we have no need for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and of His suffering, death and resurrection. In fact, to ignore the Law in the face of His atoning work is to cheapen what He has done for you, me and all who believe in Him.

Without the Gospel, we may as well take the attitude of "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die," and embrace fatalism (or, at best, Stoicism), because damnation is all that is ahead of us.

On the issue of homosexuals getting married, since I am not clergy, it would be unethical for me to comment. I cannot mix my own discipline of the study and analysis of human behaviour with a layman's theology.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 21, 2009 09:29
David: Still law, law, law Try making a pure statement about how the Gospel applies

ELCA's Love Police . . . . .

Posted by Henry at November 21, 2009 11:43
Well John, you've truly captured the essence of the ELCA's new "Gospel": a patriarchal tone; a disapproving frown; and a smug sense of superiority over a theology that it considers to be less "loving" than itself. You're right. . .who needs to hear the Law when we have this "Gospel"?

Gospel

Posted by John at November 21, 2009 11:59
Henry: I know of no other Gospel other than Jesus Christ crucified. Your comment is showing your anger towards someone who sounded to you as frowning, smug, and patriarchal. I was really expr essing anger about how little I have accomplished in proclaiming the Gospel. I stand judged as a part of the body of Christ when folks cannot express how the Gospel applies to sinners. When I hear law, law, law being expressed I hear how we have failed in our proclaimation. Forgive me for my part in that failure. I still want to hear about what you know about Gospel.

Go and Learn what this means, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice . . . "

Posted by Henry at November 21, 2009 19:23
John, the Gospel is the good news of God's forgiveness for repentant sinners, for Christ'sake. It stands in contrast to an enabling word that bestows a sense of justice upon perceived victims. The true Gospel is only understood by those who are convicted, while those who are not guilty favor another "gospel", which is really nothing but law, law, law.

Henry, you are correct

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 22:15
I noticed that attitude leading up to CWA and even more since: you fit into THEIR (read: LC/NA) idea of what is "loving" and what isn't, or you're a legalist, a bigot, a homophobe, or whatever.

Another reason I'm glad I pulled the eject handle out of the ELCA.

AC23

Posted by Peter at November 20, 2009 22:03
James,

What does AC23:16 ("The Canons themselves say that the old rigor ought now and then, in the latter times, to be relaxed because of the weakness of men; which it is to be wished were done also in this matter.") mean to you, especially since it is placed in the context of extending marriage to a group previously forbidden to marry?

It means, find a wife...

Posted by James Gustafson at November 21, 2009 00:13
It was written with male pastors in mind. It means the pastor should be allowed to find himself a wife. It does not however say that he should be allowed to divorce his wife when she gets old or out of shape or he simply does not find himself sexually attracted to her anymore (perhaps he never did, it doesn't say anything about having a right to finding his wife sexually attractive). Nor does it say that he should be allowed to divorce her and marry a different person with different (and in his opinion better) genitalia ... Or, are you going to suggest that it's our Christian freedom ot be able to divorce and remarry whoever we want, that we have the perpetual right to be sexually aroused by our spouses' genitalia? Are you saying that we are allowed to change the rules of marriage until we do achieve perpetual sexual arousal and satisfaction from our spouses genitalia? I think there will be an awful lot of middle aged men who divorced their old wives and married young women half their ages to replace them that will love to hear what you have to preach.

Rather, I think the wife you marry should be your wife for life. More than half of the population are women, and is someone here really going to claim that none of them are attractive? Not even the ones that look and act like men? But it only their genitalia that we can be attracted to so we have to be allowed to change the rules to satisfy our sexual desires? How shallow is that?

I'm lucky that isn't the case!

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 00:52
If it were, that physical "attractiveness" is valid reason for abandoning a marriage, I would be in big trouble. Completely grey, balding, middle-age spread...I'm certainly not "Playgirl" centrefold material!

Thank God I found a wonderful wife.

so you do buy Hinlicky's analogy between divorce and homosexuality...

Posted by Peter at November 21, 2009 12:45
James,

It sounds like you're worried that people will do what they want if we relax the canons any. Given the way some of Paul's congregations misunderstood Christian freedom and some people misunderstood Luther as promoting libertinsm, it's understandable. However, celebrating the marriage of homosexuals is very much like celebrating the marriages of priests. We understand marriage as God's gift to all of us and it provides useful ordering of society.

When I'm talking about the marriage of homosexuals, I'm talking about lifelong commitments. I'm talking about celebrating the marriage between two gay men, such as a couple at my old church who have been together for the last 35 years through thick and thin. If it was only 'attraction to genitalia', I don't think they would have made it together this long.

...

Posted by James Gustafson at November 21, 2009 20:18
If it wasn't about genitalia then no one would insist on trying to couple with someone of the same sex... If it wasn't about genitalia preferences of the individual then it wouldn't be an issue to marry only a person of the opposite sex for the sake of making a complete Christ described marriage couple, with both a male and female, like a left and right shoe, like a left and right arm, like a bride and groom, like Christ and his Church...

...or it might be about love

Posted by Peter at November 22, 2009 13:16
James,

Is marriage something you do to fulfill the law of God, or is marriage a state of being that is protected by God's law and celebrated by His people? There are complete couples in which the gender of both halves is the same. Are you left-handed or right-handed? Scarcely 100 years ago, it was wrong to be left-handed. Does that actually make a difference, or does it matter more what you write?

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 21, 2009 11:06
They were prohibited from marriage not because of God's law but because the so-called church made a decision that it should be this way. Church and councils do err in their decision=making and they certainly have used Scripture in conjunction with alien methods (scholastic theology) to undergird their decisions. Not unlike what we do when we rely on alien methodology to undergird our use of Scripture (eg. Enlightenment-text reading). Again, the Lutheran principle is correct: Scripture interprets Scripture as well as Scripture also is its own critic (per Althaus). It is only by faith in God's word that we can live and move and have our being...also has to do with forgiveness in the Gospel.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 21, 2009 11:46
Read: Great Your last statement about forgiveness is saying something about Gospel. Lets hear more about what the Gospel means for Homosexuals and how they live their lives,

Let's not forget the action taken at the CWA

Posted by Gregory at November 21, 2009 17:08
Here's a quote from the Archbishop of Canterbury, of whom Bp. Hanson is apparently a fan:

July 27, 2009, Archbishop Rowan wrote (in response to the ECUSA decision about ordination):
"..a blessing for a same-sex union cannot have the authority of the Church Catholic, or even of the Communion as a whole. And if this is the case, a person living in such a union is in the same case as a heterosexual person living in a sexual relationship outside the marriage bond; whatever the human respect and pastoral sensitivity such persons must be given, their chosen lifestyle is not one that the Church's teaching sanctions, and thus it is hard to see how they can act in the necessarily representative role that the ordained ministry, especially the episcopate, requires."

Even the CWA acknowledged that we do not agree. While we are engaged in arcane discussions about this gospel or that, we have 'thumbed our noses' at the vast majority of Christendom.

Is the ELCA really in the minority that has the "correct" reading of Law and Gospel?

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 21, 2009 18:27
above post quoting Rowan Williams:"...it is hard to see how they can act in the necessarily representative role that the ordained ministry, especially the episcopate, requires."

While I agree with his premise in terms of non-recognition of same-sex union re: marriage, Williams' conclusions are incorrect and he falls into the trap of a heresy, I think it was donatism. The quality of the individual has been elevated above the mission of proclaiming the Gospel and administering the sacraments. Pastors need to be trained sufficiently so that the disctinctions between God's law and God's Gospel can be made in terms of preaching. There are other requirements that need to be there for sufficient training of pastors, eg. ancient languages, exegetical methods, etc. But to conclude that homo/hetero are qualities which can make or break an ordinand, that is foolish. Unless the Gospel is there, there is no church and that is the responsibility of the pastor to "flesh out". For example, if anyone, hetero/homo, etc. preaches something alien to the Gospel, the church is not there. The Gospel must be there for the church to be there. If it isn't it may as well be a synagogue or mosque or even a Rotary meeting. But it isn't the church.


Quod erat demonstrandum

Posted by Gregory at November 21, 2009 20:04
If we change the Church's teaching, then those who had previously not been compliant are now acting within the teaching of the Church.

I had understood that the Church had a responsibility for choosing suitable candidates for ordination. It seems that now it is the Church's responsibility to conform itself to the candidates. Presumably, anyone is suitable for ordained ministry as long as The Gospel is there?

The Gospel

Posted by David Pross at November 21, 2009 22:19
Again, Gregory, we are brought back to the concept of "The Gospel" that Peter, John et. al. are so dogmatic about.

I think you are correct about Church teaching being changed so that those who were not in compliance now can say that they are - even if that changed teaching is heretical.

Have so many in the ELCA forgotten that Lutheran theology is Law AND Gospel?

Gospel

Posted by John at November 21, 2009 22:41
I cannot believe that no one felt competent enough to apply the Gospel of Christ crucified to homosexuals. If this is the state of our ability to proclaim the Gospel I better understand why our Church is in such dire straits. Surely you can see what law cannot do. But neither can the Gospel if no one proclaims it. I am still asking for this discussion to explain for us how you apply the Gospel to homosexuals that want to get married and be pastors that can proclaim the Gospel because they have been there. Anyone up to the challenge? By the way, David, it is law and gospel, but where has the Gospel been in all this discussion? Can you proclaim it for me?

The Gospel?

Posted by David Pross at November 22, 2009 00:15
John, you are incorrect. Several have proclaimed "the Gospel" in these threads: Christ took the sins of all humanity for all time upon Him, suffered, died and rose again.

The Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds explain how this Gospel applies to EVERYONE.

The Gospel has to do with salvation, which we cannot accomplish ourselves or by the works of the Law.

However, nowhere in Scripture or the Confessions is "the Gospel" construed to say that once saved, we can thumb our noses at the Law.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 22, 2009 07:53
David: You have talked ABOUT the Gospel. ThatS easy. Now proclaim the Gospel to a homosexual couple who want to get married and one of them wants to be a pastor. HOW WOULD YOU DO IT? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM? How would you help them to see how it relates to them. You may say this is foolishness. But think about it for a minute. For us as the Church this mission.This what we are about.

...

Posted by James Gustafson at November 22, 2009 12:05
The gospel is not changed because of who we present it to. I think your entire premise is flawed by thinking that different people get different gospels. We are all in Sin, our sin consumes us even as we live in it, and then IF we accept the gospel when we hear it, we begin to see our death and sin and recognize our utter inability to save ourselves in our old selves and recognize the need to allow Jesus to change us, without us being able to hold onto the old aspects of our sinful selves, we have to let it go.
.
The Kingdom is at hand, God loves you and has sent His Son to you to redeem you from your Sin so that he can draw you into His Kingdom. Salvation comes from the blood of Jesus, shed for us on the cross at Calvary, the blood is a covering for us, it covers our sins and our sinful condition, Christ washes us clean in his Mercy and Grace, the gift that only God can provide for us. Christ calls on you, he knocks on your door and asks to be allowed in. He wants to help you kill your old self and die to your sin and then redeem you from your death and provide a new life for you, giving you a new Life in Himself. By his Mercy we are changed forever and healed and redeemed and made saints in the kingdom by the Grace of God. Turn away from your old sin and your old self, accept the Son as your Savior and be saved, be baptized and born again in his name and live in redemption, then begin a new life in Him by following his ways and obeying his commands, spreading His gospel and be a reflection of his glory on earth until he returns. It all starts by turning away from your sinful condition and turning towards Him. Turn away from the death that comes from obeying the flesh, and follow the Spirit.

Romans 8:3-7
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 22, 2009 16:48
The Kindom is at hand God loves the homosexual and has sent His Son to the homosexual to redeem the homosexual from the hoimosexuals sin so that he can draw the homosexual into His Kingdom. Salvartion comes from the blood of Jesus, shed for homosexuals on the Cross at Calvary. The blood is a covering for the homosexual. it covers the homosexual's and the homosexuals sinful condition.Christ washes the homosexual clean in his mercy and Grace the gift tha only God can giveor provide for the homosexual. Christ calls on the homsexual, he knocks on the homosexuals door and askls to be allowed in. He wants to help the homosexual kill the homsexuals old self. James, would you agree with the way I have applied what you wrote to the Homosexual?
Why did you leave off verse 1and 2 of Romans eight?.

Gospel

Posted by James at November 26, 2009 17:49
James where are you? Are you going to consider my last post? See Nov. 22nd 16:48 Blessings, John

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 22, 2009 12:28
Again..until I'm blue in the face: there is no such thing as an estate of marriage for same-sex unions. This is God's established condition and not my own or as an outcome of some democratic process.
It is a factual condition and not proscriptive. Secondly until Aug/CWA decisions, Visions & Expectations had NOT denied homosexuals from the ministry. V&E, pre- as well as post- Aug/CWA decision is very clear that persons who in their self-awareness view themselves as homosexuals can be ordained. No problem. The problem now since Aug/CWA decisions is that having recognized a condition that could be defined as same-sex union, the ELCA is responsibile for defining/managing that. All these issues occur under God's Law and have no redemptive outcome.

The Gospel that Christ died for/as substitute for your sins is heard/or not (ie. belief/unbelief) by individuals.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 22, 2009 16:58
Talking about it and discussing how it applies to someone different from us is two different things. James has started to do that with me and I appreciate it. Your right we can not accomplish salvation for ourselves . I would suggest therefore to allow Christ through the Holy Spirit do it. Also you are right that the Law remains important but I would suggest in a completly different way than the way you are using it. See my posts with James.

exactly so!

Posted by Peter at November 22, 2009 13:07
Gregory,

I think you're shortchanging the power of the Gospel, but your final line is exactly correct. I think the Church's responsibility is to provide useful tools to those proclaiming the Gospel, and those tools include things like familiarity with Hebrew and Greek, in-depth knowledge of Scripture, proper grounding in Law/Gospel hermeneutics, understanding of the Lutheran Confessions, exegetical skills, how to deal with people, etc. I think it should also help people come to the proper discernment of what sort of ministry is appropriate for them.

How many ordained ministers are there in Africa? How fast is the faith growing there? Do you have to be an ordained minister to proclaim God's kingdom?

Reply to Peter

Posted by Gregory at November 23, 2009 12:03
Which then begs the question: Why was ordination/recognition/blessing the 'big deal' at CWA?

it affects a lot of lives

Posted by Peter at November 23, 2009 18:52
Gregory,

Because under our current system we're excluding and driving away workers whose help we need in proclaiming the Gospel. We're also denying the protection of marriage to a subset of people and indirectly standing in the way of equal treatment for all.

???

Posted by Gregory at November 24, 2009 12:10
Are you arguing that one does not have to be an ordained minister to proclaim the Gospel, but that ordination IS some sort of civil right?

ordination and rights

Posted by Peter at November 24, 2009 19:21
What I'm saying is that ordination is only one way of organizing church. It happens to be THE way that we currently organize church, which is why it matters so much.

My comment about equal treatment isn't actually about ordination but the larger effects on society. The church is one of the principal agents standing in the way of equal civil rights for homosexuals (such as the regulation of marriage by the state-- that the state views marriage as a civil right was affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1962 when interracial marriage was the big, divisive issue). So long as the church teaches homosexuality as a sin, it conditions people against granting equal rights to them. I think it's one further bad fruit borne of the 'homosexuality is sin' tree.

Non Sequitur

Posted by Gregory at November 28, 2009 17:21
Peter:

You seem to have jumped from proclaiming the Gospel to 'organizing the church'. They are hardly the same thing!

grounded in Gospel

Posted by Peter at November 29, 2009 12:46
Organizing the church and proclaiming the Gospel are two distinct things, but the manner in which the church is organized can preclude proclaiming the Gospel. The clearest example is given in AC28, which makes it clear that when the church tries to wield the power of the sword, it loses the Gospel. Similarly, when we exclude people from the ministry based on arbitrary reasons, we lose the Gospel.

Reply to Peter

Posted by Gregory at November 29, 2009 14:49
I am curious to hear what you would consider valid reasons for excluding someone from the ministry. Please elucidate.

Peter, are you serious?

Posted by Gregory at November 29, 2009 17:43
By your logic, the majority of Christendom and two millenia of teaching and practice have 'lost the Gospel', since they have excluded married homosexuals from ordained ministry.

Really?

more problems than just exclusion of homosexuals

Posted by Peter at November 30, 2009 21:29
Gregory,

The majority of Christendom has a lot more to answer for in the last 2000 years than simply excluding homosexuals (or women, or married men) from the ministry. Also remember that Israel had been literally given ordinances by God Himself (not even this 'inspired by the Holy Spirit' stuff we insist about Scripture-- the Law went from God to Moses to the people) and one of those ordinances was 'don't work on Saturday'. And yet, we confess a Christ that not only worked on Saturday, but said it was God's will that He (and His disciples) worked on Saturday.

To your question about ordination, I think the church can survive (and maybe even thrive) with a much looser ordination process. I think the church's role should be two-fold: help potential pastors find their proper vocation, even if that is not being a pastor, and provide potential pastors with the tools that will be helpful to fulfilling their office. I would put discipline under the first, but also leave it largely up to congregations-- if they're dissatisfied with their pastor, it's up to them to decide to call a new one, and if there are serious problems, I think it should be disclosed to any congregations considering that pastor. The bishop should certainly help facilitate these things, but I think if the bishop thinks of herself more as a helper than as a dictator, things will go better all around. I do think the church has an obligation to provide pastoral care to rostered leaders, and part of that would usually be encouraging them to turn themselves in if they're criminals.

comment

Posted by readselerttoo at November 22, 2009 12:53
Okay you want to hear a proclamation of the Gospel? Here it is:
Because of Jesus' love for you, you are forgiven!

Now having announced that to you, it is up to you to confess yourself to be a sinner (like the rest of us) or remain a presumptuous saint, like the Pharisees and scribes in Jesus' day. There is a relationship that God establishes with sinners, but only when sinners realize the depths of their need for Jesus' forgivenss and love for them will it become effective for you. Since Jesus is a living Savior and death no longer has dominion over him and if you have been baptized into Christ via a valid Sacrament of Holy Baptism and you believe that Jesus is your servant Lord, then you are saved! Praise Jesus!

However, standing aloof from your Savior unable to participate in his love for you through presumed holiness, not unlike a scientist/observer unaffected by what's going on (ie. grandstanding), you will not receive his benefits even though Jesus is offering them to you. "Take, eat, this is My Body GIVEN FOR YOU!" It is your choice, belief or unbelief, receive what Jesus offers or remain on the grandstands.

Gotta love that Absolution before Confession!

Posted by Henry at November 22, 2009 15:15
Excellent expose', readselerttoo, of Gospel Reductionism's in-your-face grace! Hallelujah, I'm "in"!

Gospel

Posted by John at November 22, 2009 20:45
I'm in too. Celebrate the Gospel with me.

Gospel

Posted by John at November 22, 2009 20:42
No question about it,I am saved. I am. I don't agree fullly with you about how I was given this gift. I thought it was the Spirit that calls gathers and enlighten. "If I do this and if I do that" as you put it is something I am growing into by the Spirit after He accomplished my reconciliation on the cross All of it is a gift.Chapter 7 of Romans "Wrethed man that I am who will save me from this body of death. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ my Lord" You speak to much law for something that is free. And salvation is free. I realize I need to come to an appreciate of my need. But in Christ it is the Gospel that brings me to that appreciation not law. When He presents the Gospel to me I want it because I want to be with Him not because I want to be "saved from my sin". I take Communion not because I was told it is the right and proper way to do it(law) but because He has invited me to communion with Him. (Grace)

Reasoned and temperate debate: a view

Posted by Wier Chrisemer at November 24, 2009 08:37
PRH: Reason. Logic. Humility. Compassion. Reasonableness. Scholarship. More humility.
Response: Oh yeah? You suck.
Another response: Really? You're a shithead.
Another response: Well, at least I'm not a(n) heretical shithead. Like you.
PRH: Thank you for your thoughtful response but that's not quite what....
Response: Did I mention that you suck?
Another response: You suck. And if you didn't have your head so far up...

Et (not "incarnatus est," just) cetera...

On Behalf of All Those Incomprehending, Mean-Spirited, "Right Wing" Lutherans Who Get a Little Cranky When Prof. Hinlicky Suggests "Recongnizing" Homosexual Unions

Posted by Pastor David Ramirez at November 24, 2009 11:06
From one of your posts Prof. Hinlicky:

"Witness only that incomprehending and mean-spirited reaction from the right wing of American Lutheranism on this blog."

Boy, that's rather touchy. I thought that a professor could roll with the punches. I thought you wanted robust talk.


I. Incomprehending

I mean really, who has not comprehended your argument? It is a very clearly expressed position. I, and many others, have a problem with it because it departs from the catholic faith, has no basis in Scripture, and is utterly novel.


II. Mean-Spirited

I don't think one who proposes such a novel solution has the right to be touchy when people cry foul. I must return to thinking of our fathers in the faith: Do you seriously wonder what an Aquinas or Chemnitz would say to such a suggestion? I dare say they would hardly have treated you as gently as those of us on the "right wing" of Lutheranism have here.


III. Right Wing

Throughout this post I have assumed that I am one of those whom you are referring to as part of the "right wing". Are you calling my position, which is that it is obviously absurd and anti-catholic to "recognize" gay unions,…"right wing"?

Instead of dismissing “right wing” critiques, perhaps the questions to ask are, "Who is in line with Scripture?" and "Who agrees with the witness of our fathers in the faith?". Your novel proposal fails on both these counts, so I don't know why you are getting so sore and resorting to dismissing arguments due to their "right wing" source.

I mean, come on, you are proposing to "recognize" perversion. I don't think it is "right wing" to be concerned.


IV. The Loss of the Center

Your mourning the loss of the center gets to the heart of the problem, especially how you ended the above post:

“It may well be that my proposal of 'recognition not blessing' proves politically untenable. Witness only that incomprehending and mean-spirited reaction from the right wing of American Lutheranism on this blog. But your incomprehension from the left-wing is its mirror image. The polarization grows like an unstoppable juggernaut, making me thing of the poet: "the center does not hold. The good lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity." Lord, have mercy.”


The Lutheran "center": the moderates/liberals of Missouri and the conservatives of the ELCA. The majority of this “center” still wants novelties such as women "pastors" and loosey-goosey communion policies, picking and choosing from the inerrant Scriptures of God, BUT are rightly scandalized and repulsed by the chaos and insanity caused by the revisionists of the ELCA.

This center, has a martyr complex. I have heard it many times and can smell it a mile away, "We are so beleaguered, so misunderstood, we alone carry on the true faith, struggling to be a confessing group within the foolish "right wing" LCMS and the radical “left wing” ELCA.

The problem is not, however, that the “center’s” proposals are thwarted because they are politically untenable (The suggestion that this is the actual problem is of course a cheap slur against those of the “right” and the “left” who hold their beliefs out of conviction) The problem is also NOT that people don't understand you. The problem is that your theology is untenable. It is a half-step, a pull back from the edge, but not all the way to safety. The Lutheran “center” can only be thought of as the “center” because of the odd time we live in now. A Christian who believes in the communion of saints takes a longer view, and a Christian who believes that the Bible IS the Word of God, and not some Barthian puff of possibilities, such a man knows that the “Lutheran center” of today is incredibly far to the left of the catholic confession of faith.

For Women’s Ordination is just as novel, unbiblical, and as anti-catholic as blessing homosexual perversion, finding no support from the faithful who came before us. And I know we are not used to telling people “No”, but closed communion is the way it always has been, out of love for the wayward. Finally, only modern liberals believe in an errant Bible, a Word of God that God makes mistakes in, or a Bible that really isn’t the Word of God. Good things will not come out of a “center” that pulls back from outright “paganism”, but fails to deal with the faulty presuppositions and positions that led them there. Actually, they are doomed to repeat history.

The conservatives in the ELCA have a chance right now to reflect on their presuppositions, it would be wonderful for them to not just make this about sex, but truly look at how they got here. But in the very least, please get over the whole myth of the golden Lutheran center. It is theologically untenable, spent, and passé.

I think you just made his point

Posted by Peter at November 24, 2009 19:37
While "incomprehending" and "mean-spirited" are generally viewed as pejoratives, I think your last post illustrates that in this case they are simply descriptive. I wish I could successfully communicate to you why this is the case, but that is not a gift I have been given.

Left wing, right wing...

Posted by David Pross at November 25, 2009 00:28
...to me are layperson's terms for the port and starboard aerofoils on our old F-4 Phantoms.

There is too much of a tendency to scoop everyone's views about everything into a neat little box marked "conservative" or "liberal."

One of the biggest cases of Bravo Sierra that I heard about this was back during the '90s, when Rush Limbaugh (a man I have less time for than for cleaning my cat's litterbox) made the pronouncement "you're either conservative or liberal. There's no in-between." That can best be explained by the logical fallacy of bifurcation.

My theological views can be described as quite orthodox Lutheran. However, it is wrongly assumed that theological orthodoxy must lead to political conservatism (the "Christians must be Republican" sweeping-generalisation fallacy). Some in the LCMS are not thrilled by my own political views; que sera sera. One instance of "conservatism" (theological) does not automatically equate with all viewpoints being as such.

I support single-payer national health insurance, a strong national defence (but not pre-emptive war), requiring four years' military service for all Americans (two years active, two years National Guard), except for legitimate conscientious objection and/or medical issues, lifting the travel embargo to Cuba, and a minimum income safety net for all people. I do not support abortion on demand, the death penalty or automatic amnesty for those here illegally.

Not easy to put me in a specific "box"...just the way I like it.

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