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Against the 130 "Teaching Theologians"

by Paul R. Hinlicky — April 29, 2009

A statement signed by, so far, more than 130 ELCA “teaching theologians” (as the ELCA Press Release has seen fit to dub them) has come out in support of all four recommendations by the ELCA Task Force on Sexuality. I will show how misleading and self-contradictory their statement is. But I have to begin here on a personal note. I belonged to the students who first attended Seminex. I was consequently ordained in the miniscule AELC, which body went on, however, to play a disproportionately important role in subsequent American Lutheran history...

A statement signed by, so far, more than 130 ELCA “teaching theologians” (as the ELCA Press Release has seen fit to dub them) has come out in support of all four recommendations by the ELCA Task Force on Sexuality. I will show how misleading and self-contradictory their statement is. But I have to begin here on a personal note.

I belonged to the students who first attended Seminex. I was consequently ordained in the miniscule AELC, which body went on, however, to play a disproportionately important role in subsequent American Lutheran history. I note that of the signatories to this statement, the following professors from Seminex appear: Mark Bangert, Kurt Hendel, Ralph W. Klein, Edgar Krentz (all at Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago) and Everett R. Kalin (at Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary). These men were my teachers and models. Among other signatories are Kathryn A. Kleinhans, Wartburg College; Peter T. Nash, Wartburg College; Douglas E. Oakman, Pacific Lutheran University; Gary Simpson, Luther Seminary—all fellow graduates of Seminex. I could also mention my theological friend, Ronald Thiemann of Harvard, who had graduated from Concordia—St. Louis somewhat earlier, whose name also appears on this statement.

A little church that represented around 2% of the merging churches in 1989 to this day produces a disproportionately high number of leaders, taking the “right side of history,” as we used to say in those days. There are many other signatories as well whom I would regard as friends in theology through the years. Naturally I find it painful to break ranks with these old comrades. But I do. I have to bear witness that the solution they propose in this statement is no solution: not biblically, not theologically, not ecclesially, and not pastorally. It is going to be as constructive as the Exile thing itself was, that is, a destructive polarization, a demoralizing division, fueled by self-righteousness and leaving a lot of human wreckage in the wake. But let me show you why.

The claims of these teaching theologians are misleading and self-contradictory. In addition to appealing to the Task Force Recommendations (lines 147-212), the statement highlights the following four points, which I will cite verbatim and then comment on.

We too affirm the authority of the Scriptures, but the seven biblical texts that are frequently cited on the issue of homosexuality are not directly pertinent to the 21st century discussion because some of them condemn specifically homosexual rape, deal with questions of “clean and unclean” that are not normative in the Christian community, do not take into account issues like “sexual orientation,” and presuppose that all would agree with a particular interpretation of what “nature” teaches.

If these teachers affirmed the authority of Scripture, they would take their orientation on the question in dispute from the weighty and ecumenically recognized texts of Genesis 1:26-28 and Mark 10:2-14, as the Lutheran christocentric hermeneutic of Scripture requires. Then they would interpret the seven biblical texts prohibiting homosexual relations in that light. Of course, without the positive good in view that the prohibitions seek to protect, the prohibitions appear as arbitrary and not “pertinent.” Thus their reference to the supposed ambiguity or irrelevance of these negative prohibitions is subterfuge—a false appearance created by considering the prohibitions apart from the positive good of God’s creative purpose in the one-flesh union of male and female that these (and other) laws regarding sexuality seek to protect. Notably, then, these teachers fail to affirm the biblical and Lutheran doctrine of marriage, as we shall see in the next section. At a minimum, this sin of omission misleads; it exposes in any case the falsehood of their claim to “affirm the authority of Scripture” as it has been understood in Lutheranism and is claimed for the written Word of God in the ELCA Constitution, Chapter Two.

The Task Force wisely proposes that both heterosexual and homosexual persons are expected to express sexual intimacy within publicly accountable, lifelong, and monogamous relationships. This has long been the expectation for heterosexual couples, and therefore is an appropriate expectation for homosexual couples as well.

The wisdom of this counsel is hardly to be doubted. But it is not wise counsel dispensed by the Task Force. What wisdom it possesses derives rather from divine law, as in the Fourth and Sixth Commandments, which we learn in the Catechism and pledge ourselves to in confirmation and ordination vows. The wisdom of lifelong and sexually exclusive commitment might conceivably be extended to same-sex couples, but to do that we have to begin with the good that God wills and intends normatively. So here too a subterfuge occurs, betraying the claim of the teaching theologians to affirm the authority of Scripture in faith and life. Under this mask of prudential counsel, we in fact witness material antinomianism, that is, the content, the good revealed in Scripture is disregarded, and a merely formal law of responsibility, without any particular content, takes it place, just as we see the draft Social Statement and the Four Recommendations.

Be it noted that the Task Force could have had the real wisdom of supporting civil unions in civil society for homosexual persons, as a matter of equal protection under the law of the land in our kind of liberal democratic order. Then, in light of the analogy of that such unions might bear to Christian marriage, it could have asked whether the church might under certain conditions recognize them, though not bless them with the blessing of Genesis 1:26-28. Real wisdom from the Task Force might then have prevented the theological self-destruction of the ELCA that will now possibly occur in August. But the pseudo-wisdom recklessly endorsed here by the “teaching theologians” does nothing to assure that a material, content-rich return to the teaching of, and self-discipline under, the law of God, as we see it in Luther’s Catechisms, will occur in the future, and everything to worry that a formalistic, abstract, and politicized notion of “critique” of those who actually hold to the material content of the commandments will take its place. Do I imagine this?

The first recommendation of the Task Force rightly proposes that acceptance of same-gender relationships among all people of this church is a prerequisite to considering people in same-gender relationships for rostered leadership positions.

This latter worry that those who oppose these changes on material grounds will be vilified is now reinforced by the statement here that same-gendered relationships must be accepted by all people of this church. This is a manifest misreading of the Recommendation, which howsoever incoherently urges a local option blessing of same-sex unions and later a local option ordination of persons in such unions. If the teaching theologians are saying that “rostering” of persons of such relations awaits universal approval in the ELCA, it will never happen. What are they thinking? The reference to universal approval of same-gender relations seems ominous.

While not all Lutheran church bodies are of one mind on these issues, Scandinavian and German Lutherans have already taken similar actions to those being proposed now in the ELCA.

This a huge overstatement, as anyone familiar with the church situation in Europe knows. Only the state churches of Sweden and Denmark have established such policies regarding homosexuality, which in any case immediately caused trouble with other member churches of the LWF. Under similar political pressure from the state as experienced in Sweden, the church of Norway has recently narrowly approved ordaining homosexuals in partnered relationships and is bitterly divided as a result. Finland, arguably the most vital Lutheran church in Scandinavia, has to date not followed suit. And Germany as a whole has not—the bishops of the EKD voted down such a change (though it is possible that, just as in the ELCA, local options are being exercised within this or that of the Landeskirchen). Why we Americans would want to follow the lead of contemporary Sweden, with the lowest church attendance in the entire Lutheran world, is another question we will not pursue here. Utterly ignored by our “teaching theologians” is the deep opposition to the proposal from the really vibrant, flourishing African and Asian Churches in LWF family, as well as African Americans and Latinos in the ELCA, not to mention the vast majority of the traditional constituency of the ELCA.

Thus we see the divisiveness of this proposal cavalierly tossed aside with yet another subterfuge. The minority Lutheran churches of Eastern Europe with which I have worked will be deeply demoralized if the ELCA takes this action, and will be sorely tempted to turn away from their present good relations with it. The appeal to precedence here is highly selective, and does not even try to justify continuity with the church through ages, according to ELCA Constitution, Chapter 3.

We who favor the changes being proposed pledge ourselves to honor and respect those sisters and brothers within the ELCA who for reasons of theology and conscience choose to oppose these changes.

This is not believable, for several reasons. First, those who for reasons of theology and conscience oppose these changes cannot and will not in any sense cooperate with them, but rather bear public witness that those who teach these things are not faithful to Scripture and Confession, as pledged in ELCA Constitution Chapter 2; that the people of God should not listen to them; and that they should certainly not support in any form a church that admits such changes. If we act on our consciences, there is no alternative but publicly to contradict the claim of these 120 to teach us. How will they honor their opponents, when they act on their opposition? Second, this affirmation as mentioned contradicts the statement made above that acceptance of same-gender relationships among all people of this church is a prerequisite to considering people in same-gender relationships for rostered leadership positions. I don’t know what sense to make of this contradiction but I find it loathsome beyond telling if it implies what logic would require it to mean.

We recognize that the unity of the church is based on one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, and that within this unity, faithful members may disagree on individual items of faith and life.

This pious platitude, unmasked, asks us to continue together as a church where an agenda should be pursued that contradicts things that opponents hold as integral to the one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. I don’t know any other Lord Jesus than the one who teaches in Mark 10:2-14, invoking Genesis 1:26-28, and I deny that unity exists with those who appeal to some other Lord than He. That would be two Lords, no longer one, ergo no any longer one faith, one baptism.

After making these four points, the statement goes on to endorse all four of the recommendations, contradicting, as mentioned above, the claim above that acceptance of same-gender relationships among all people of this church is a prerequisite to considering people in same-gender relationships for rostered leadership positions. How logically can we not take this to mean that such acceptance will be required when all four recommendations are adopted? Practically, it is inconceivable in any case how a future ELCA with a divided clergy could in any functional way come together as church, and given ELCA mandatory “inclusiveness” policies, opponents can expect nothing from it but vilification, marginalization, blacklisting, and defamation as “fundamentalists,” “neo-orthodox,” “homophobes,” etc.

The threat of coercion that I infer contradicts the pledge to honor and respect those sisters and brothers within the ELCA who for reasons of theology and conscience choose to oppose these changes. I do find it hard to believe that at least some of these 120 theologians would actually make this veiled threat. But one should minimally think that “teaching theologians” placing their signature on a piece of propaganda would be responsible enough to think about what they are signing and capable of observing rules of elementary logic, as in, e.g., the law of non-contradiction. What else do these “teaching theologians” base their claim to authority on? We have already seen that it is not Scripture and Confessions! Facing this contradiction, they should retract their endorsement of all four Recommendations, and return to the drawing board.

If not, the crack up of the ELCA after this summer will be their responsibility, along with the drafters of the Social Statement and Recommendations, not those who act in fidelity to vows made in confirmation and ordination, along which lines the ELCA is officially pledged in Chapters 2 and 3 of its Constitution, for the sake of the matter, the content, and the good which Holy Scripture gives to us in this regard, which is the “one-flesh” relation of man and woman. Were this teaching clear, pastoral flexibility and evangelical mercy could prevail as they ought in our churches in regard to sisters and brothers who bear the cross of same-sex desire. But since it is not clear, and since veiled threats are being issued to keep matters obscure, those true to Scripture and Confessions have no choice but publicly and officially to protest.

Paul R. Hinlicky is the Tice Professor in Lutheran Studies at Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia.

The Weight of the Witness of the 134

Posted by Rik at April 29, 2009 17:31
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN for the church catholic? I saw the list of names: Herbert W. Chilstrom, Presiding Bishop emeritus, ELCA & 133 others. What is the likelihood these documents will pass in their entirety?

Also available is Bishop (emeritus) Chilstom 's assessment on the statement & recommendations. He clearly and unashamedly states that he endorses both proposals (Statement & Recommendations) The second point he makes regarding the statemnent is that "It looks to Scripture and the traditions of the Lutheran church for guidance in this important area of our lives, recognizing that each new generation must determine how to apply those principles." [An Assessment of the Statement on Human Sexuality and Ministry Recommendations]. "It looks to Scripture..." My question is, which scripture? Not the Holy Bible, which seemed to be ignored in the process. Then which scripture?

He goes on to write, "We are urged to respect the 'conscience-bound belief' of those who disagree with us.
This concept, of course, is not new. In fact, we live with it all the time." And he addresses Prof. Hinlicky's concern regarding the ELCA breaking apart: "Though we disagree on this specific social issue, our respect for each other keeps us in close friendship. We agree to disagree on this subject."

I am sorry, but I cannot believe what I am reading!! I can believe it, but at the same time I can't. Professor, you hit the nail on the head with your word "polarizing."

What does this mean for us?


What does this mean for us?

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at April 30, 2009 13:11
Nothing good.

134 teaching theologians

Posted by David Moxness at May 19, 2009 21:15
I have recently read in Newsweek of Pope Benedict's being humorously referred to as "God's Rottweiler." I wonder if the 134 might be regarded collectively as "God's termites". It is not hard to imagine God becoming exasperated with some of the directions taken by the ELCA and as being not negatively disposed to the demise of this body, and the emergence of new organizational forms which will more closely try to address the charge He gives Christians. I am a lay member of a congregation within the Nebraska synod.

Teaching Theologians

Posted by Paul Grunzweig at April 29, 2009 19:43
I agree with your analysis. As noted in other critiques, where is the evidence for this movement of the Spirit as they call it ? How can we trust that the Spirit has surprised the church with this new inclusion, as they say ?

With Christ, we have the resurrection. With Paul, at the time of the Apostles who directly witnessed Jesus, we have his complete "about face" after God's direct interaction with him. What trustworthy event has happened in our time to lend credibility to the current claims of this movement of the Spirit that openly contradicts Scripture and plain reason ?

If this is what the teaching theologians believe, we have a far worse problem than the vote this summer. We cannot count how many students at the various universities, seminaries, and colleges to which this distorted biblical worldview and theology has been, and will be taught. I can no longer recommend family members to these institutions, one of which is the alma mater of my spouse.

I will not be able to stay in the ELCA regardless of the outcome of the vote. This situation is too far gone.

boc1580@gmail.com

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at April 29, 2009 21:28
In light of the fact that former Seminex professors are continuing to provide key theological leadership on this issue and a bevy of Seminex graduates are in leadership roles across the ELCA, fully supportive of the GLBT agenda, can we now finally agree that this is the bitter fruit of the fatal flaw of Seminex: a false understanding of the nature and authority of Holy Scripture?


Reply to Paul T. McCain

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at April 29, 2009 23:20
Well, I could concede that if you could concede that the 'Brief Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles' adopted by the LCMS at that time was an equally 'false understanding of the nature and authority of Holy Scripture,' under cover of which American fundamentalism and entertainment evangelism have make inroads into the LCMS as massive as the equal and opposite errors of the ELCA. Agreed?

BOC1580@GMAIL.COM

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at April 30, 2009 10:52
Paul, actually, I would enjoy, very much, a conversation with you about these points.

I'd be happy to talk about precisely that: why, and to what extent, the "Brief Statement" may/may not be, the "be all and end all" that some supposedly think it is.

I've always found Hermann Sasse's critique of it compelling.

I'm not so sure I'd concede that "Evangelicalism" and its inroad is equally as harmful to a church's core theology as what we see taking hold in the ELCA. Or put it this way, I think there are more breadcrumbs left by those chasing out into the wilderness of Evangelicalism back to authentic Lutheranism, than those left by whose who have wandered into the wastelands of contemporary liberalism/feminism, etc. etc.




Reply to McCain II

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at April 30, 2009 12:57
Such a conversation might be fruitful, I am game. But first why don't you post Sasse's critique,with which I am not familar. And second, the point of my previous rejoinder to you is that unfortunately in contemporary theology many people are merely reactionaries, as in Newton's physics: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. You were attacking the Seminex professors I named. Fine, they deserve it in my view. But I did not see you owning any responsbility for the action of J A O Preus & Co that created that reaction(ary theology). Further, if we are going to converse, you are going to have to take my words, usually carefully considered, precisely. I never attacked Evangelicalism, but fundamentalism and entertainment evangelism. My colleague and good friend, the Edwards scholar, Gerald McDermott, has taught me a lot about that distinction. Interestingly today a lot of evangelicals, as they repudiate fundamentalism and starve to death spiritually on entertainment evangelism, are finding their way back to classic forms of theology and sacramental worship. I welcome that. Finally, I just don't agree that is okay to err on the conversative side but not on the liberal side, so far as these terms are useful to us at all. HOw many students I have to deal with who are scarred and burned from 'conservative' theology, which has burned them with guilt and superstition and filled them with fear and suspicion!
So with those couple of ground rules laid down, I am willing and able to converse about whether the LCMS's 1970 (?) "A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles" was a deviation as harmful what my old professors have produced almost 40 years later.

Reply to Hinlicky II

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at April 30, 2009 14:13
Paul, let me try to put my fingers on that Sasse piece. It is in one of his books I have on my shelf somewhere. I believe his primary concern was trying dogmatize the age of the earth and other such issues. He eventually modified his former negativity over against the doctrine of inerrancy and by the end of his life was advocating it as a proper safeguard, but in a sound Lutheran manner, not in a Biblicistic fundamentalist fashion.

I like your "action/reaction" analogy. I've been saying for a long time that it is my observation that for every action, in the Church, there is an opposite and unequal over-reaction.

I'm not sure what precisely you are pointing toward by "the action of JAO Preus." I believe that the book, "A Seminary in Crisis" published a few years ago lays out a very clear, and convincing case, for the heart of the issues being theological, not political. I think also you would have to look long and hard at the polarizing and obviously inflammatory actions of Tiejen and company who thought they would win hearts and minds by a PR campaign, which basically flopped.

I have no issues with criticizing Evangelicalism. What I was saying, and would say, is that the errors you would wish to identify in Evangelicalism are not, in my opinion, on the same order as the outright heresy being advocated by feminism/liberalism which denies, quite openly, the fundamental tenets of the Christian Faith as articulated in the ecumenical creeds. I take your caution about your words, extend me the same courtesy, please. I said that it would be my opinion that, yes, The LCMS has dabbled far too long with Evangelicalism's trends and fads. But, I believe that there is a clearer way back out of it than there is on the other extreme, since, to my knowledge, most Evangelicals have not outright rejected the basics of the Faith, as we see in much of the rhetoric that has captivated the liberal mainline, etc.

I have experienced the same thing you have with Evangelicals finally seeing the dead end on the street. And ironically are passing certain Lutherans among us still merrily headed down the road, even as they are headed away from it into the richness of the genuine Evangelicalism of historic/classic Lutheranism.

I'm not suggesting, nor did I say, as you might wish to note, that there is anything any more "right" about being "right" than there is anything "right" about being left, but it seems that the left has left behind creedal Christianity to a degree that the right has not, if you would excuse the play on words.

I see now you wish to speak about "A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles" as opposed to your former reference to "A Brief Statement," which was produced in the 1930s. I've always found "A Statement" to be a very useful document, nothing being perfect of course, but one that well reflected the historic, evangelical catholicism of historic Lutheranism. I do not regard it as a "deviation" and I would welcome what you specifically find in it to be a deviation.

And, my point would be that what your old professors have produced forty years later was already being produced at the time of the Seminex debacle, the foundation was laid and it was merely and only a matter of time until the result is what we have now.

A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles

Posted by (The Rev.) Paul McCain at April 30, 2009 14:28
Paul, since you referenced "A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles" I thought folks might like to see it. It is available as a downloadable PDF file here:

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/astatement.pdf

I just read through it again and would be very interested in what you find in it to be a "deviation" from historic Lutheranism that you believe it to contain.

Thanks

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at April 30, 2009 15:42
Thanks for posting this. I will get to it next week. I am going out of town for the weekend, taking 7 Roanoke College students on a pilgrimage to Auschwitz. We have been here in Bratislava for the semester, and this is the culminating learning experience for them, and a hard task for me. I have done this a number times of the years, it does not get any easier. Back in touch later.

What's Wrong with 'A Statement' (LCMS)

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 04, 2009 04:15
I will try to be succinct in discussing the dead-end to which A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles has led (LCMS, 1973, unless noted otherwise, all citations taken from http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/astatement.pdf). So I must delimit the topic. I will not here discuss the dogmatic articles, but only note in passing that I approve the affirmatives (e.g. regarding Christ as Savior and Lord, Law and Gospel, Mission of the Church, Original Sin), but would reject the formulation of some of the antitheses as misleading and inadequate (e.g., that in order to affirm Christ as Savior and Lord one must damn to hell without distinction all who do not come to articulate faith in him during this life, or that in order to affirm original sin one must teach an ‘historical’ Adam and Eve as real individuals, the first human beings). Thus I would also not concur with rejection of at least some of the teachings singled out (e.g, the process of evolution from lower life-forms).

These important topics, however, are not at the center of A Statement’s concerns. A Statement is dominated by the doctrine of Holy Scripture, and this too is where I would like to focus. I made it clear many years ago ("Exodus from Lutheranism: An Argument with John Tietjen's New Book," Lutheran Forum [August 1991: 25/3] 26-32) that I actually agreed with A Statement’s position that the Church under the gospel has both the right and the duty to regulate its own discourse by “apply[ing] its confessional base definitively to current issues, and thus conserve[ing] and promot[ing] unity and resist[ing] an individualism which breeds schisms” Thus my quarrel with A Statement is not formal, but material, that is, not with the formal authority of any coherent church body to regulate its own discourse, but materially with the regulation of discourse actually contained in, and proposed by, A Statement. The current mess in the ELCA is nothing but the pathetic spectacle of trying to remain together as a church whose discourse has become an unregulated free-for-all.

So in this respect, morever, there is much in A Statement that I can not only endorse, but would argue has now stood the test of time and merits approval today by all fair-minded theologians in the tradition of Luther: that there is a “real qualitative difference between the inspired witness of Holy Scripture… making the Bible a unique book;” that “Scriptures are rightly used only when they are read from the perspective of justification by faith and the proper distinction between Law and Gospel;” that “the soteriological purpose of Scripture in no wise permits us to call into question or deny the historicity or factuality of matters recorded in the Bible;” that the normative authority of Scripture “can be accepted only through faith and not merely by a rational demonstration;” that “the authoritative Word for the church today is the canonical Word, not precanonical sources, forms or traditions;” that since “the same God speaks through the Holy Scriptures, there is an organic unity both within and between the Old and New Testaments;” that “the Christian interpreter of Scripture cannot adopt uncritically the presuppositions and canons of the secular historian.” All this, rightly understood, can and should be affirmed. Indeed, there is a ferment in theology today moving in this direction, because the kind of historicism that A Statement rightly rejected almost 40 years is also coming to a dead-end.

Alas, the difficulty is in right understanding.

A Statement was even forced to acknowledge this difficulty: “We recognize,” it concedes, “that the Lutheran Confessions contain no distinct article on the nature of Scripture and its interpretation…” This significant, but understated concession to truth means that A Statement is filling a perceived hole, a concession which allows that both the perception of that hole, and the way of filling it, do not derive with deductive logic from Scripture and Confession, but from the LCMS, on the basis of its own history and tradition in separating from rationalism and unionism during the 19th Century (Walther’s 13 Propositions on Predestination are invoked as a precedent). In formal principle, as I said, I have no quarrel with the idea that coherent church bodies regulate their own discourse. But materially, I see here two enormous difficulties here, with the end result that A Statement both burden consciences in an unevangelical way and its stifling, choking voice has le=d to the death of critical dogmatics in the life of the LCMS.

First, then: appealing on the basis of faith to a miracle of inspiration, indeed of verbal dictation, which entails the divinely guaranteed inerrancy of the Bible in all its geographical and historical details, begs the question of why this set of writings, as opposed to any other, should be received as the pure and clear fountain of Israel, that is, as the holy writings of the Holy Spirit for the holy Church. Indeed, it actually suppresses and distorts this question. Indeed, this move away from the real question --of how these writings, not others, are received together as the Spirit’s own—by resort to a miracle which neither the Bible nor the Lutheran Confession claims makes more problems than it solves: 1) it binds the interpretation of the Bible to a certain (pre-modern) science; 2) it forces exegesis unnaturally to harmonize discrepancies; 3) it blinds to the genuine achievements of modern Biblical scholarship; 4) it blinds to the real failures of modern Biblical scholarship; 5) it disowns Luther’s dialectic of the Word and the Spirit, such that a Spirit-less reading of the literal Word can pass itself off as ‘orthodoxy’ and miss the intention of the Spirit in this time and place of our Father’s world (on this latter point, permit to refer to the detailed arguments I made in Dennis Bielfeldt, Mickey L. Mattox, Paul R. Hinlicky, The Substance of the Faith: Luther’s Doctrinal Theology for Today [Minneapolis: Fortress, 2008]).

Second, the need for critical (i.e. not the confessionalistic apologetics of hyperconservative Lutheran sectarianism) dogmatics is forfeited, which is the urgent task of testing the spirits in a world which is at the same time our Father’s continuing creation and the realm usurped from God by the ancient Foe. It is not an accident that the LCMS in the past generation witnesses the virtual death of such critical, contemporary theologizing, since all its best and brightest minds are frightened to death of the unleashing of the dogs on them, if they so much as hint that Adam is, in Romans 5, a corporate figure; that the Earthman and Mother-of-all-living in Genesis 2-3 are literary figures of humanity, indeed, of Israel whose disobedience has brought on a state of exile from paradise; that a parable or novelette can convey divine truth as easily as an historical narrative, and that the question of any given text in this regard is not how it fits in a preconceived framework constructed by an impossible theory of inerrancy, but rather the best explanation of its original meaning and its passage into canon and its reception in the teaching of the church. I could go on, but you get the point.

What is unevangelical (think of the doctrine of transubstantiation, which was not wrong to want to protect the Real Presence, but wrong to burden consciences with a speculative theory of it) is to burden consciences by requiring more of belief than God gives. A Statement turns a properly anti-docetic concern to affirm the real humanity of Jesus Christ as an historical event into an impossible demand to receive pre-modern science, including exegetical science, on the ungrounded theory that the whole house of cards collapses if you deny as an event in history that Jonah was swallowed by a big fish. This is not only impossible because we creatures are creatures of our own day and age and cannot willfully remove ourselves from its science, anymore than from our own skins. It is also impossible theologically because the Word and Spirit whom we engage in biblical exegesis and critical dogmatics are the Word and Spirit of our heavenly Father, and this, us too, here and now, this is our Father’s world. We cannot regard things like the theory of evolution, or JEPD, as demonic deceptions without denying the sovereignty of God. That does not mean receiving modern insights uncritically, but testing them. But such testing is a real labor of critical dogmatics, not the foreclosure of that work demanded and enforced by A Statement.

To put the point bluntly: A Statement is insufficiently Trinitarian. It’s understand of “God” in “God’s word” is not that of the Father who gives His Son and Spirit to bring forward to Himself and that Beloved Community which is the destiny of His sighing creation. In place of this, it inserts its own strangely rationalistic notions of what a genuine Word of God must be, making, as I said, more problems than it solves and deflecting us heirs of Luther from our true tasks in theology today.

A Statement: Adam & Eve

Posted by Rik at May 04, 2009 17:58
How can you reconcile a non-historic Adam and Eve with the whole of Holy Scripture? Is one not reversing the order of things if one denies that we learn of original sin from what the Spirit of God teaches us in Genesis and replacing it with the concept that the Hebrew people came up with a concept of original sin which sounded "godly" to them in their worldview, so one or more of them came up with a story/myth to explain their chosen concept (perhaps modeled on the Epic of Gilgamesh), and over the years the Israelites, and later, followers of the Messiah endorsed it and added it to their faith stories because it added meaning to their lives?!! Then we have replaced Deus Revelatus with Deus Abscondis, and we turned Christianity (and Judaism) into just another man-made religion thought up by men and women to try to explain that which they found unexplainable in their day and age. I am not a believer of such a religion. Have you not also thrown out the proto-evangelium (first Gospel) by moving Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel et al. from the realm of history to some supposed mythical "pre-history?" "2) it forces exegesis unnaturally to harmonize discrepancies" Well, are you not unnaturally forcing Hebrew Scripture into a Darwinian worldview to try to save it from being branded as un-Scientific? If one allows for a six-day Creation, could one count the rings of a cut tree-stump in the garden to evidence the "age" of the tree, or did God just create the tree seeds? Did his Creation evidence layers that some could later construe as evidence of an older earth? You claim it unnatural to let Scripture interpret Scripture to attempt to harmonize discrepancies, and I claim you unnaturally manipulate Scripture to fit an a.D. nineteenth, twentieth, or twenty-first century worldview which is even more forced and distorted than your claim of unnatural harmonization. On another topic, you wrote, "A Statement was even forced to acknowledge this difficulty: “We recognize,” it concedes, “that the Lutheran Confessions contain no distinct article on the nature of Scripture and its interpretation…” This significant, but understated concession to truth means that A Statement is filling a perceived hole..." By reading our Lutheran Confessions, one can see that their view on the nature of Scripture and its interpretation is inferred. Luther and the others did not need to respond to the heresy that attacked the nature of Scripture, as that attack came later in history. Luther responded to the heresies of his day rather prolificly I would say. Thanks, Prof. Hinlicky, for your always thought-provoking commentaries and responses. I also look forward to what you may say regarding "entertainment evangelism" in the LCMS. Would this be a reference to their apparent addiction (among some) to replace historic liturgy with Christian rock concerts in the name of church growth, and following Bill Hybels' lead in trying to increase numbers?

Correction:

Posted by Rik at May 04, 2009 18:20
Sorry. Above I wrote "(perhaps modeled on the Epic of Gilgamesh) and meant (perhaps modeled on the creation stories of the ancient Middle East.)

Reply to Rik -- Briefly

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 05, 2009 00:45
Real exegesis is always a fresh encounter with the text, and then the theological attempt to interpret the text intracanonically. This procedure means facing the difficulties, not uncritically waving them away with a wand by appealing to a rationalistically construed miracle of inerrancy. In other words, interpreting Scripture with Scripture is not exegesis, which is rather concerned with the specific message of a given text, but the task of critical dogmatics. My entire criticism of A Statement is thatin bad faith it collapses the ongoing task of critical dogmatics into a forced and unpersuasive exegesis.
The real authority of Scripture then comes about, as I have repeatedly explained, in a dialectic of Word and Spirit, in this connection, what the Urgeschichte meant in its original historical context as Israel mediated on the theological meanings of its Exile, and what the Spirit intends by making this text the first chapters of our canonical Bible. Then Paul's comments in Romans become exceedingly important.
If you insist on a 'real Adam and Eve' then I would say that whoever our first ancestors were are 'Adam and Eve.' What we have in Genesis 1ff is a revelation (Luther: original sin is so deep a corruption of human nature that reason cannot believe it but it must be believed on the basis of the revelation in the Scriptures).
Of course, we have to deal with science theologically, as did our ancestors. But we have to deal with the science of our age, not of our ancestor's age. What I want to do is interpret this science with the Bible, not the other way around.
You have some idea, Rik, that God works apart from physical means. This idea is very unLutherlike.
If you want to see how my exegesis of Genesis 1-3 would look, check the new issue of Journal of Lutheran Ethics online, which just posted Luther's Christocentric and Biblical Doctrine of Marriage (elca.org/jle).
Oh, on entertainment evangelism. My view is that is a new form of the sale of indulgences, but not nearly as serious theologically as that was.

"Miraculous Inerrancy"

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at May 05, 2009 08:25
I again want to thank Dr. Hinlicky for a very interesting explanation of his concerns with "A Statement." It is bracing to have debate and argument on these points.

As he noted in his superb response to Mary Todd's "Can We Talk?" the issue is not that we do not talk, we talk plenty. I would assert that we do not do enough critical thinking and debating and arguing.

I am mulling over Dr. Hinlicky's catch-phrase to wave away inerrancy: "a rationalistically construed miracle of inerrancy." I would propose that there is a considerable and categorical difference between talking about what precisely is meant by "inerrancy" and asserting, as Pr. Hinlicky does, that Gen. 1-3 do not recount actual historical events, that there were no real two human beings named Adam and Eve, and recognizing in the historical account the limitations of human language to describe the indescribable: the miracle of creation ex nihilo and the miracle of creation of man and woman from the dust of the ground.

What I will heartily and gladly concede is that inerrancy/inspiration is no guarantee of Lutheran fidelity. One can hold to an inerrant/inspired text and go wrong on many points and issue, nor, on the other hand, is rejecting it outright a mark of faithful Lutheranism and certainly has had disastrous consequences as well.

I have found the personal struggle of Hermann Sasse, who extracted himself from the morass of classic higher critical liberalism of the German Church, and renounced it, to be very helpful. Earlier in his career he was willing to speak of errors in the Biblical text. He came to realize that the consequences of trying to maintain that one must distinguish between human words and divine words had led to the dogmatic collapse of Lutheranism in Europe and this collapse was engulfing must of American Lutheranism. Truly, he was a prophet: vis the ELCA's ecumenical agreements in which the Sixth Chief Part is abandoned in favor of ecumenical agreements with liberal mainline Protestants, including even the UCC!

Interestingly, Sasse worked toward the end of his life on a fresh approach to inspiration and inerrancy, but was never able to complete his wish to write a definitive book on the subject. He did however speak of his findings and change in thinking. He came to affirm the inspiration, inerrancy and authority of the Scriptures, not merely or only in "theological matters" or where the Gospel is concerned.

I believe Sasse did however open the door to moving past misunderstandings/stereotypes and other issues that we might trace to later Lutheran Orthodoxy, or even to American Fundamentalism on these issues.

Sasse's chief concern in these matters became establishing how best to understand the Scriptures as both divine and human, not separating the two, or stressing one aspect over the other. He explored the similarities between the doctrine of the two natures in Christ and the Lutheran understanding of Scripture as divine and human. Thus, I think Sasse set before the Lutheran Church a view on these issues that is uniquely Christological and Trinitarian in nature, one which perhaps might be useful in moving past the Seminex era debates, a view that is not taken up by "A Statement" in any depth, but one which might also help resolve tensions and concerns with whatever is perceived to be lacking in that document.




Just another thought to throw into the mix.

Will the Real Paul McCain Please Stand Up?

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 05, 2009 10:11
I can't figure out which of the two of you I am supposed to be critically engaging with: the one with Sasse, who recognizes the inadequacy of the inerrancy doctrine to the treasure it seeks to protect and thus wants to move beyond the Seminex wars, or the one who in haste to speak misses the point of my arguments, relapses then into worn out party-line sloganeering, on occasion smears opponents with domino-theory non-sequiturs, and appears to gloat over the misery of others when his own house is hardly in order. When you decide, let me know, and we can continue. I can engage with the former. The latter is a waste of everyone's time.

BOC1580@GMAIL.COM

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at May 05, 2009 16:41
Paul, since you were the one who engaged in a good bit of propagandistic, jingoistic sloganeering yourself, I guess we can call it even.

I would welcome your engagement with my post where I put forward Sasee's view, and I await your response to my question about how you interpret our Lord's assertion of the historicity of Adam and Eve.

Error is not Sin

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 06, 2009 00:50
Newly resolved, then, to avoid jingoism, ahem, I gladly express my appreciation of Sasse's struggle to move beyond the morass of Neo-Protestant theology. He was a brave and honorable soldier of Christ during the Nazi period, and I have often thought that the first draft of the Bethel Confession which he co-authored with another Lutheran theological hero, Dietrich Bonhoefer, should be re-tooled as a confession for our times. Any takers out there on that idea?
The idea that the doctrine of Scripture might be freshly constructed in analogy to the doctrine of the divine-human person of Christ as a way of moving beyond the misleading and inadequate notion of 'inerrancy' strikes me as promising. The crux intellectum with this proposal, however, is whether we will be as radical as Luther was in His Christology, for whom the assumptio carnis meant the hiding of the deity under its opposite. One of the opposites of divine perfection is error. Not sin, in that Christ himself did not sin, but out of perfect love innocently assumed the sin of others. But finitude, creatureliness, which the Son of God made His own, body and soul, hence the finite, historical mind of Jesus, who can readily admit, "of that day or hour no one knows, not even the Son, but only the Father," contradicting what he had said just a few verses earlier, "this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished."
It is natural, not sinful for finite, historical minds to err. We get things wrong. We make mistakes. We speak inaccurately. We learn by experience. Only a Platonic or Cartesian rationalist would think that error is an implication of sin or that the source of sin is error. Even our best science of the day is "error" in that the truths it perceives are not yet seen sub specie aeternitatis, thus not seen fully to correspond to reality, thus partial, thus distorted.
Jesus and Paul spoke of Adam and Eve in accord with how they appear: characters at the beginning of the Bible whose fateful sin is the orgin, not of our finitude, but of our loss of the good choice to love God above all and all things in and under God with our subsequent bondage to other powers. We don't need to make any further ontological assertions about Adam and Eve to speak Scripturally as Jesus and Paul spoke, and it is positively wrong to burden consciences with beliefs about the ontology of Adam and Eve that try to explain what is ineffable.
On this point, then, I am very glad to read your words about the inadequacy of human words to describe the miracle of the creatio ex nihilo. But please note and fully own the consequences: human words, words to be sure chosen by the Spirit for our Scripture and rule of faith, but human, all-too-human, with all their imperfection.
The attempt to try to secure the right reading of the Bible from its own assumed imperfection by dogmatizing a theological opinion on the ontological reference of Adam and Eve in history is a curiosity prying into God's secrets. It leads to no good. It distracts from the main point Paul wants to make, namely that Christ is the new and true Adam. I do not deny then that Adam and Eve refer, but I do deny that we can secure this reference as a scientific fact in history. I affirm theologically that they refer to us as the sinful humanity to whom the redeeming God promises the Messiah, a reference we appropriate in repentance and faith. Satis est.

Paul to Paul

Posted by Paul T. McCain at May 06, 2009 12:32
Please call me Paul, Paul. And...thank you for your response.

Re. the first draft of Bethel...yes, very fascinating indeed to ponder possibilities!

Re. your Christological comments, interesting, though...I'm not quite sure this was Sasse's point in using the comparison. Even as the Son of God assumed human flesh from His Blessed Virgin Mother, such flesh was preserved free from sin and error. I think a conversation about what the "human limitations" are when reading Scripture is actually something different than suggesting that Gen. 1-3 is not a historic account, but a parable/story/legend imbued with truth. I don't find anything in the text to suggest that the Lord Christ and the Apostle Paul regarded Adam and Eve to be anything other than actual persons. I think particularly in light of the "marriage" debates going on in mainline churches, it is all the more important to assert the historicity of how things were "in the beginning" wherein our Lord makes His point about why a man leaves his parents and cleaves to His wife in a one-flesh union.

While human words can not hope to express completely, perfectly or fully the mysteries of the Faith, when such words are given by God via Divine Inspiration, as clearly taught in the New Testament, and in the church catholic, we would need to be very guarded to suggest that though limited, such words are speaking things that are not true. That's my point.

I find it very difficult to build a dogmatic assertion on the sinking sand of texts that are, perhaps, maybe, not really true and in fact, asserting erroroneous accounts of the beginning.

I sense you have several conversations going at once in this thread that you started, and it has been kind of you to respond to my comments. I am getting a tad of a ache in the brain trying to follow the nested comments, and I think that the conversation now going between you and Dr. Klein is, at this point, of much more moment than ours, so I'll back out now and perhaps we can take this up sometime in a separate topic devoted to the issue. Again, thank you. I look forward to more conversation.


Paul

The Ontological Reference of Two Adams in History

Posted by Rik at May 07, 2009 18:13
Professor, in your above lesser post (of 5/6/09) "Error is not sin", you wrote "We don't need to make any further ontological assertions about Adam and Eve to speak Scripturally as Jesus and Paul spoke, and it is positively wrong to burden consciences with beliefs about the ontology of Adam and Eve that try to explain what is ineffable." There is nothing ineffable about Adam and Eve, and you are confusing consciences by trying to cast doubt on their existence, and whether such even matters. You went on to assert that "The attempt to try to secure the right reading of the Bible from its own assumed imperfection by dogmatizing a theological opinion on the ontological reference of Adam and Eve in history is a curiosity prying into God's secrets." When God gave us the plain Words of Scripture it is much more than "a theological opinion" we are dealing with. To be sure, God has many things He has kept from mankind, but that which He has revealed in Scripture is anything but secretive (unless He's counting on people to avoid reading His Word). When Christ is referred to as the "Second Adam", it is no distraction to assume the ontology of the first Adam. Rather, to delve into suspicion and doubt, making God's Word into a human book filled with human errors, this is rather the distraction to the main point Paul wanted to make. No matter how "freshly" you encounter the text, to impose soubt and suspicion towards Adam and Eve's existence is most unnatural. Would you say that the Resurrection of Christ is also "ineffable" and therefore as it is beyond words (perhaps to you), and the details given in the Gospel accounts are distractions from the main point of the evangelists? That is does not matter whether He rose from the dead bodily, because the message is what really matters? If this is your approach to Scripture, I feel very sorry for you and others with a similar approach to Scripture. You love unity in the church, yet choosing to reject God's Words for rationalism creates the wall that separates us. If we are to critically decide what we will accept and what we will reject as we wrestle with the text, expecting the Spirit to surprise us with a contradiction, then we have much, much greater problems than whether practicing homosexuals should be ordained to such a church. Do such theologians here their shepherd's voice, or do they try to deduct what his voice could say?

Two Adams, Revisited

Posted by Rik at May 08, 2009 09:53
Please forgive me if my approach was to strong. I realize you have a hydra of other discussions here, and you are trying to defend the proper interpretation of the Scriptures from those who may see you as a "hyperconservative." I hate to see you get what could be seen as "attacks" from both ends. That certainly is not my intent, anyway. Today's science will be at odds with Biblical Theology. Biblical Theologians will be at odds with the Scientific community, especially that academic empire who treats theory as fact. Who moderates when one appears to espasses on the other's territory? My concern is this: In this day in age, people need more and more to trust the Bible, approaching it for answers. And the answers, many of them, are there in black and white and red. But too often certain academic Christians force an approach where we put the Bible into the tray to dissect it, aking questions in order to get to more questions, and never getting to any real answers--only hypothesis. I don't see Jesus using this approach when modeling teaching, nor do I hear any commands to attack the Word with criticism and cut it into pieces. Do you see any truth to this at all? Can yu relate to this at all? Why create doubt when there are doubt-creators coming at us from all sides: atheists, agnostics, muslims intent on making the world Islamic, secular humanists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and so many more. How can we help confused children, teens & adults hear God speaking His answers to their very real questions and problems without turning Biblical interpretation into a cacophony of competing voices conceding, "we don't really know." Can you see where I'm coming from?

Correction:

Posted by Rik at May 08, 2009 09:59
Correction: Who moderates when one appears to TRESPASS on the other's territory?

boc1580@gmail.com

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at May 05, 2009 05:05
Rev. Hinlicky, your comments are interesting and thought-provoking.

As I consider them, I can't help but wonder how you reconcile our Lord Christ's assumption, and teaching, that Adam and Eve were real human beings "in the beginning" and that this is also the Apostles' assumption and assertionss. I struggle as does everyone I'm sure with these issues, but I do not see how we can retain our believe in the reliability and authority of the Dominical and Apostolic Word of Scripture and regard Gen. 1-3 not as history, but parable.

I find in your remarks some fine intentions and worthy sentiments, but ultimately the seed and root of the very problems that plague the ELCA today: a critical attitude over against the text of the Scriptures, an attitude that is not that of classic, historic Lutheranism [which I think you wish to wave away with pejoratives].

It is this view that has led to the ordination of women and the inevitable move toward the ordination of homosexuals and homosexual marriage that has the ELCA and all mainline/liberal Lutheran church groups in its death-grip. Your argument that the Church does not need to acknowledge the words of Scripture as true, while affirming the truth these untrue words convey, is the root of the problems in the ELCA. I do not believe that encouraging more of this thinking is a way out of the mess.

The "urgent task of testing the spirits in a world which is at the same time our Father’s continuing creation and the realm usurped from God by the ancient Foe" is the Church's task, to be sure, but one that must heed the words of the Church's Lord and Master and his blessed Apostles.

It is a sad reality that for many who have imbibed of the Seminex waters find, finally, escape from the morass that these theological attitudes have produced in the arms of the "Magisterium" of Rome. And one can see the sense in such movements toward Rome. When the foundations have been destroyed, something must replace them, and so willing to give up the authority and reliability of the Biblical text, there is then left only hope to be found in a "teaching authority" outside of the Lord's Word. This is where I have seen such attitudes lead.

The "critical dogmatics" set forth in Braaten/Jenson's "Christian Dogmatics" has come full circle and there is no escaping the inevitable consequences for the church's life and confession that it set into motion.

I find your analysis far too facile, an analysis well-rehearsed no doubt through the years reflecting on the Seminex debacle and the consequences in the ELCA which are now being full realized.

I am appreciative of the fact that you recognize so much of "A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles" to be of value.

Pre-Modern Science?

Posted by jack kilcrease at May 05, 2009 11:52
Dr. Hinlicky's comment about those who are committed to inerrancy particularly interested me as a person who has over the last few years come to accept the doctrine as a necessary part of Lutheran confessional theology.

The comment on pre-modern science I found particularly interesting. First, I think that it should be noted that as a fan of both the work of David Scaer and the Concordia commentary series, the Biblical scholarship produced by LCMS scholars and theologian is of very high quality and relies on a strong knowledge of the historical context of scripture. I do not think that after having read Arthur Just's commentary on Luke, for example, one could say that he is relying on "pre-modern science" to do his scholarship. In fact both Just and Scaer's theory about the origin of the Gospels as early Christian Catechesis is far more historically plausible (that is, without theological considerations) on its own compared with the theories of composition promoted by the Jesus seminar.

What he and the other do do is assume that the text is trustworthy in what it says about history. This of course does not mean that the authors did not have individual personalities or that they did not arrange their material in symbolic manners in order to communicate certain theological truths or that they did not use certain poetical expressions where we would use scientific ones. For further elaboration of this point I would see Robert Preus' article "Notes on Inerrancy."

What I noticed when I attended an ELCA seminary not too many years ago was that my professors were continuously caught up in a contradiction. The contradiction was that they wished to affirm creedal orthodoxy while bringing to the texts of scripture exegetical assumptions that would undermine those claims. Notably, assumption worked from by the Historical Critical Method is taken from Spinoza and from him back to Epicureanism. The gods do not speak with anyone- if someone tells us the gods have spoken to them, then they're just trying to fool you so that they can gain power over you. Hence, my professors all worked from the assumption that the texts of Scripture are cut-and-paste jobs (even though these texts that have supposedly been pasted together have never been found and we have no evidence that people in the ancient really wrote this way) and that you can tell which original text these little bit of the text has been taken from from which "wicked priest" (as the Epicureans would call them) is trying to fool you into obeying their authority (whether it be the Zadokite priesthood (P) or the Deuteronomist party (D).)

On top of this many of their interpretations of Scripture they offered were simply taken over from Rabbical theology or other ancient Jewish sources which were markedly hostile to Christian reading of Scripture. So for example, I was told that "let us make man in our image" was not about the Trinity, but that God was speaking to the Angels. This not only makes no exegetical sense (Man and Woman are not said in the text to have been made in God and the Angels image, but only God's), but it is simply an interpretation to be found in Philo. Again, why is his exegetical tradition based on an Anti-Trinitarian view of God, better than a Christian one growing out of the exegesis of the NT itself? Why could it not just be the case that God really wrote the Scriptures and that his Triune nature is actually reflected in them- even in the OT?

My point is those who exegete Scripture on the basis of inerrancy simply assume the trustworthiness of the Bible in what it says about the world. Exegetically they allow the text to set the agenda and therefore their hermeneutical assumption grow out of the claims that the texts make about themselves- like that they're free of error or like Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the OT or that the prophets spoke by the Spirit and "saw is glory" before hand.

The Historical Critical Method on the other hand is not objective science, but rather simply another exegetical tradition that brings together hermeneutical assumptions foreign to the texts. They take them from a number of exegetical traditions- but in the end, basically ones that hostile to Christianity.

What is even more amusing is that theologian in the last 200 years have assumed that these "scientific" exegetical methods really cause them trouble and that they need to figure out how shore up Christianity with some other method. One way is interiorizing everything- hence Bultmann, Schleiermacher, etc. The newest one is the appeal to "theological" reading of Scripture that assume that all the anti-Christian hermeneutical assumption of the Historical Critical Method are "objective" and so it is necessary to appeal to some enthusiastic account of the Spirit's agency in the life of the Church. So, we can still read the Bible like Irenaeus and Luther, but because the Spirit infused a new, mystical meaning into the life of the Church which in the midst of their Spirit-breathed "Church-culture" they read into the text. Ironically the modernism in theology still reigns supreme.

The real end to the curse of the modernist meta-narrative on Church life will when people allow pre-critical Biblical orthodoxy to have its way again. I suspect once the culture definitively rejects Christianity in the next 20-30 years, there might be a way forward to this.

Thank You, jack kilcrease !

Posted by Rik at May 05, 2009 18:48
Thank you, jack, for articulating this! I couldn't say it any better than you, and I long for the day that Christians will realize that we are "beggars before God" and it is not our place to put God and His Word on trial. How would those who approach the Bible with suspicion, expecting parables everywhere and miracles nowhere--how would they answer, were God to convict them with words like the ones He directed toward Job: "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me." Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand?" (Job 38:2-4 NIV). When mere humans approach God's revealed Word in a Jesus Seminar approach, is this not the height of arrogance? Jesus probably said this. No, he never said that, and I doubt he ever said such and such." As my wife said the other night about these online conversations, when you unravel one part of the Bible, the whole Bible starts to come unraveled. I think there's wisdom in her words, and I'm thankful that though she came through the ELCA, she kept her direction by setting her compass to God's Word Alone, and not to the myriad labyrinths of human imagination in the terrain below. To be sure, the Spirit may surprise us, and often does. But He never contradicts Himself. Jesus predicted this as recorded in St. John's account of the Gospel. Just read Jn 14:25-26; 16:5-15 (especially v.13). How do those who praise the Historical-Critical Method respond to passages such as St. Luke 10:21? And if God desired such an approach to Bible study, why did he primarily choose fishermen and other lowly men as His disciples when He could easily have chosen learned men from the Pharisees and Sadducees. Was it not Jesus Himself who said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." What does this mean?

Reply to Dr. Kilcrease

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 05, 2009 23:52
Dr. Kilcrease, you little essay here is a strange bundle of insight and confusion, in my view. You are certainly right to point out that historical criticism can be more than just a method for establishing the best possible historical account of a text as an aid to its theological interpretation, but also a hermenuetic rooted in Spinoza and hostile to what he regarded as the anthropomorphic representation of God in the Bible. The latter insight does not, however, disqualify the former. You are also right to assert that at its best the notion of 'inerrancy' stood for the trustworthiness accorded to Scripture in what it said. The trouble is, as Rev. McCain admits with Sasse, this begs the question of what Scripture is talking about, and begging that question, inerrancy is not adequate to the Scripture being read as the Spirit intends. For Luther, what the Bible is talking about everywhere, in every passage, is sinful humanity and the redeeming God. This reference is what distinguishes theology from philosophy (including what in Luther's time was antecedent of our science, i.e. natural philosophy).
Thus my point is not about superiority of modern science, but its inevitability for us. In this regard, the historical criticism of the Bible is a fact of contemporary science, just like the heliocentric universe or quantum mechanics or evolutionary biology. This does not mean the Spinoza's hermeneutic triumphs in the silly votes of the so-called Jesus Seminar, but that we cannot read the Bible without awareness of the two creation accounts, the separate message in Isaiah 40-55, the Synoptic problem, the Johannine difference, et cetera.
You mock the ferment in contemporary theology towards are recovery of theological exegesis. That is really a shame. But it does indicate what this dispute is about. You wish to be pre-modern. I wish to be post-modern. I don't think repristination is intellectually possible or spiritually desirable, because theologically it amounts to denial that this here-and-now, as produced by history under God's governance, is our Father's world. In Trinitarian theology, the dialectic of Word and Spirit locates itself in this time, on this earth as God's continuing creation, and refuses to concede it to the devil.

A Given?

Posted by jack kilcrease at May 06, 2009 05:05
I suppose my point was that we cannot simply take the HCM as a scientific given. It is not a given the way one could talk about a heliocentric universe. Much like evolution, the HCM is simply an alternative theological narration of reality with a theological perspective that is at odds with orthodoxy Christianity. I think one could write a similar work on it to that of John Milbank on sociology in "Theology and Social Theory."

As a rule, what I tend to notice is that those who practice it simply build conjecture on conjecture. More or less it often times amounts to going through texts and re-narrating them without the miraculous elements in them. Or the give an alternative narration of the let us say the history of Israel and the early Church based on the assumption that each text is not a Spirit-breathed work of the Triune God, but rather a series of power plays. One again could make a similar observation about evolution. Each new species is discovered is related to earlier species without any empirical link. What could be interpreted as act after act of fiat creation rather becomes a process of consciousnessless matter transforming itself magically first into conscious matter and then conscious matter of greater and greater degrees. Again, it's merely a way of narrating reality- not empirical. We can very well narrate reality another way based on the Word of God.



I stand with you, Paul Hinlicky

Posted by Samuel Zumwalt at April 29, 2009 23:24
Dear Paul,

I thank you for this reasoned and passionate exercise in apologetics. In the midst of the ad hominem arguments that will continue to be used to attack traditionalists, your critique cuts through the notion of traditionalists as not the brightest and the best. That can never be said about Paul Hinlicky by his former Seminex classmates and professors.

As for me, I came to Seminex in 1976 as a poor old dumb country boy from East Texas without the benefit of a pre-sem system education. So I can be dismissed as having gone off to the right, that wacky Texan who was always a bit too crazy...after all Bush is from Texas and all that. And, while reviewing those ad hominems, I suppose Braaten and Donfried and Benne and Jenson and all the other fine retired teaching theologians can be dismissed as having entered their dotage -- bitter old men and all that. Just a bunch of Eurocentric white male homophobes and all that.

So thank you, Paul Hinlicky, for telling the truth even to dear friends and colleagues. Your truth-telling should, I hope, give some pause late at night when all the applause dies down after another day toeing the academy line in the name of peace, luv, and justice.

In the old days, I drank the Kool Aid, believing that those on the left really were the brightest and the best. And then I actually began to read and to appreciate that there were brilliant people in the traditionalist camp who could give a reasoned account for not marching lockstep with the politically correct "elite." All it took was for me to meet people with as good if not better academic credentials who believed that it was their responsibility to pass along the faith once delivered to the saints.

God bless you, Paul, for being numbered among those saints!

Sam

BOC1580@GMAIL.COM

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at April 30, 2009 10:54
While, obviously, Paul and I would not agree on a number of things, I've always held him in high regard and respect for his principled efforts in defense of authentic Lutheranism, even if he and I may not agree necessarily on precisely what that means in its various details and dimensions.

I'm you you, Sam and Paul

Posted by Arthur Turfa at May 03, 2009 08:18
I came to Seminex a year after Sam, and also from a non-system background.In 1979 I transferred to LSTC and the LCA. There I saw how ex-Missourians were suspect. I dealt with it by remembering what I was taught, especially by Fr. John Damm and Bob Bertram. As the ELCA began, other ex-Missourians dealt with it by being trendier than their new friends in the LCA and then ELCA. It was alomst as if they "proved" they were no longer bound by the old ways.
As for myself, I kept my distance fromt he AELC. I could not figure out why starting another Lutheran denomination was the way to Lutheran unity; nor can I do this day.
See you all in Chicago?

Purpose of the AELC

Posted by Ralph W. Klein at May 04, 2009 15:51
Interesting reading, even when the statement I had a hand in writing is viewed with such suspicion. There are, for example, NO threats in it.

A recent post about the AELC misses the point. The AELC at its founding pledged that it would not be a continuing denomination but called at that time for a new Lutheran church that would include ALC and LCA. That invitation was accepted and the ELCA is the result. So whether or not one questions the strategy, it worked. And I suspect the unity came quicker than it would have without the AELC invitation.

I am looking forward to the great Seminex reunion in Chicago and especially the lively and loving discussions of differences. That's an especially warm invitation to Paul, Art, and Sam.

Warm Greetings in Return.

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 05, 2009 09:53
It has been many years since I have exchanged communication with you, my esteemed teacher. I don't mind acknowledging how much I learned from you many moons ago, and I also don't mind repeating how painful I find it personally to have to break ranks with you. Even to say that what you, with the other signatories, are teaching is false. Ouch. How that reminds me of a lot of foolishness from 30 some years ago.
One of the things you taught me in those days, though I could hardly expect you to have any memory of this, is the Latin expression obiter dicta. You wrote this in the margin of an exegetical paper on Isaiah 40 in criticism of some grand dismissal I had made of another opinion. I consequently learned both the Latin and the idea, and have ever since felt that we owe opponents the dignity of a rational argument, especially in the case of sharp disagreement which in fact threaten the bonds of unity. Please don't have any illusions about that. That exactly is what is at stake in this controversy.
I wish you would give that argumentation to me, and the readers of this blog, right now. I made a case for a contradiction in your statement, and I acknowledged as my own inference that this contradiction seemed logically to entail a threat. I also said that I can't imagine some of the signatories would actually intend a threat. But we are left with an unexplained contradiction. In reply, you deliver an obiter dicta: It is not so. Fine, I would like to believe you. Then explain the contradiction, and the real meaning, and also why those of us who oppose your position and intend to act on our opposition should not expect the villification and ad hominem to which we already have been subjected for years by your allies in this controversy. In the process, you might also address all the other objections to your statement which I argued.
I would also point out that at Seminex I learned the hermeneutics of suspicion. True, I have tried for years to unlearn this hermeneutic, and replace it with a hermeneutics of charity. When I studied your statement, and found the half-truths, exaggerations, subtrefuge, etc. that I identified, I admit I relapsed to our old Seminex hermeneutics of suspiscion. I wouldn't want to make a life-style out of that, but when you wake up to the fact that you are being bamboozled, it is still a useful tool.
So, how about it? I promise to be lively and to the best of my ability even loving. Peace, Paul

Dialogue with Paul Hinlicky

Posted by Ralph W. Klein at May 05, 2009 14:50
Dear Paul:

Thanks for the challenge though I pick up the challenge with some misgiving because blogging, like talk radio, often is devoted to more heat than light. I'll confess that I found a number of your assertions in your original posting to be "over the top." Namely: we are fueled by self-righteousness; given to subterfuge; fail to affirm the biblical doctrine of marriage; your spoke of the betrayal/falsehood of their claim to affirm the authority of Scripture, ignoring of the fourth and sixth commandments, not believable, the people of God should not listen to us, loathsome beyond telling, allegiance to two Lords; threat of coercion; veiled threat.

The reason Barbara and I drafted the statement was because we were aware of three highly critical publications by teaching theologians (you, Robert Benne, and Carl Braaten), and thought it was incumbent upon us to indicate that many (most?) other current teaching theologians have a different opinion.

The purpose of our document was primarily to say yes to the four recommendations of the task force. We therefore kept our preamble short--there are six bullet points.

The first bullet point is the most important, at least to me (none of my comments below should be attributed to Barbara or to all the 142 teaching theologians who have now signed on). It is easy to charicature the argument and say that one side affirms the authority of Scripture and the other does not. I have paid a heavy price for standing up for the true authority of Scripture, which does have to do with salvation by grace for Christ's sake through faith, and not with the historicity of Adam and Eve or the authorship of the book of Isaiah. Make no mistake I do affirm the authority of Scripture. The Task Force did no favor to people who are still wrestling with this question on either side by their handling of Scripture. Two examples: The social policy statement basically says we are highly divided on homosexuality (true enough), but since much of that division supposedly has to do with Scripture, they only refer readers in a footnote to the exchange between Arland Hultgren and Wally Taylor some years ago. That exchange was quite good, but forms no part of the present document. But what did Arland and Wally say, and who will guide us through this impasse. That is why I thought it important to say that Genesis 19 and Judges 19 deal with homosexual rape and therefore are not pertinent to homosexual relationships between consenting adults. That Leviticus speaks of this in the Holiness Code (I could go on at length about Leviticus 18 and 20, but won't do so here.None of us holds--I hope--that Lev 20:13 should be followed. It mandates that practicing homosexuals should be executed! Lev 18, by the way, discusses homosexual relations in the same context with bestiality and sex during a woman's menstrual period. Bestiality is still universally condemned; sex during a woman's period is considered a dated prohibition. Is homosexuality more like the first or the second?) Romans 1 also requires a longer discussion, but Paul seems to hold that homosexuals are overly passionate (so David Fredrickson). Paul also proposes that nature teaches this, just as nature teaches for him that men should have short hair. Third, Paul thinks that homosexual orientation is a choice where many/most today think that gender orientation is given by nature or nurture. My second example of inadequate use of Scripture has to do with the use of Scripture in re divorce. The task force has some lines with good pastoral advice on dealing with divorce, but then refers the reader without comment to Matthew 19. That is one of these passages where Jesus says that anyone who divorces commits adultery. Well and good, but how does one put these two things together. I suspect that all of you who preach on these texts when they come up every year in the lectionary work hard to affirm the sanctity of marriage, the inevitable sinfulness of divorce, but you also recognize that there is forgiveness for this sin and at times divorce is the lesser of two evils. My point is that Scripture is cited by chapter number and not really used.

We all of course affirm the institution of marriage. I have a 47 year commitment to that blessed estate. Our statement was about one page long and was not meant to be an alternate social statement. You mention Gen 1:26-28 and Mark 10:2-14 (should be perhaps 2-12). In many ways Gen 2:24 seems more pertinent to me than Gen 1, but I too affirm our vocation of ruling the world lovingly in God's place, including the responsibilities of furthering the human race as given in Gen 1. But increasingly gays and lesbians are being fruitful and multiplying. A lesbian couple in our congregation has three children, which one of the women has given birth to.

I will confess that our third bullet point is not completely correct, but our statement of question 1 of the task force is. That is, only congregations and synods that choose to do so will recognize support and hold publicly accountable same gender couples. The question in the ELCA has started at the wrong end for the last 20 years in my opinion. That is, within the first year of the ELCA the bishops were asked whether gays and lesbians could be ordained. A better question would be can they be members in good standing without calling them to repent. In my opinion, we need to say that before we ask the question can they be rostered leaders. As the questions are now posed, I suppose the congregations that say yes to #1 will be the same that say yes to #4. I wish question 1 was more inclusive, but it is not. In any case, no one is threatening those who say no with anything. My obiter dictum (note the singular!) stands. I do take my answer to question 3 with radical seriousness. Just this last Sunday I was leading an adult forum on this question. A straight young man (his own identification) wondered out loud why anyone still opposed gay and lesbian relationships. Are they just ignorant, he blurted out? I immediately called that into question. I recognize that those who oppose these changes do so with for what they think are good and valid reasons. I do not consider them ignorant, nor do I ever use the term homophobia.

I've gone on way too long for a blog. Here is my bottom line. What do we say to or about heterosexuals who are living together? Pastor friends tell me that 80% or more of the heterosexual couples they marry are living together. Do you admonish them and call them to repent, I ask. No one has ever said that he or she did. That's what I meant when I said that the church is coming to a consensus that sexual relations should only take place within long term, monogamous relationships. The social policy statement says that this church does not favor such relationships. Draft 1 says this church does not approve of such relationships. I asked the drafters whether "not approve" means consider sinful. That is, what are they trying to say to young people who probably have the most interest in sex. I think this led to the change to "not favor." If that is the growing consensus, we in our statement were proposing that same set of guidelines for homosexual persons. If people are same gender oriented, how are they to "use" their sexuality? Celibacy is a gift given only to a few. I would hope that they would live out their sexuality in long term, monogamous, etc. relationships. (The sixth commandment,by the way, says only that a man should not sleep with another man's wife. I'm quite sure that's what the Hebrew words mean. That clearly is not in itself an adequate sexual ethic. People in the Bible can married at 14 or 15 to someone their parents had chosen)


I suspect that those who read these words may or may not be moved by them. I hope all will grant me my integrity, and my earnest desire for the unity of the church. Thirty or forty years from now, when we will all have passed from the scene, I suspect that gay and lesbian brothers and sisters will be more easily accepted in the church, or at least that's what I gather from my children and other young people. Of course, I may be wrong. I thought we were going to win at the New Orleans convention in 1973!

In God's peace.

Ralph

Debate with Ralph Klein

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 05, 2009 17:47
Thanks very much for responding, Ralph. Your personal integrity was never in doubt in my mind; I have known you to be an honorable and fair-minded person, and I appreciate your good will and candor in this post. But all that means objectively is that we are talking amicably about a divorce.
For the issue at stake in this controversy is not about my integrity or yours, but about what we teach on the basis of Scripture as God’s will for His people. Heirs of Luther are not much impressed with the number of signatures collected on a document by putative authorities, even less by the shifting winds of the Zeitgeist. As you affirm in principle, what matters here is the authority of Scripture, rightly interpreted. On this basis, and on the basis of what you have written, I have to continue to dispute your claim to theological authority on this topic.
First, you do not practice what you preach in this response. You list a series of my indictments of your statement, lifted out of the context where my reasons for these statements were in fact provided and elaborated. Read in context, my indictments were not obiter dicta (notice the plural), but based on close reading and logical scrutiny of your statement. But you do not return the favor. You ignore my substantive critique, even though you quietly concede one of my central contentions about the contradiction stemming from bullet number 3.
You defend your personal integrity and good intentions about which I have no quarrel. But you don’t actually engagement my arguments. For example, regarding the matter of the 7 Biblical passages against homosexuality, which you say is most important to you, you ignore the argument of canonical theological exegesis which I made, to wit, that the prohibitions of homosexual relations have their sense in light of the one-flesh relation of male and female lifted up as the human vocation in Gen. 1:26-28, deliberately and pointedly invoked by our Lord in Mark 10:2-12 and so received by the ecumenical church as the normative Christian teaching on sex, marriage and the family – not to mention the Lutheran Reformation’s incomparable contribution here (on this see my new article just posted at the on-line Journal of Lutheran Ethics, elca.org/jle). You say that ‘of course’ we affirm marriage, referencing your own personal choice. My choice and your choice is not what is at issue here, but what the church should teach on the basis of the Word of God about God’s choice for His people. In this precise respect, I deny that you affirm marriage theologically as the norm; and as I read your blog, you as much as say that we are adopting a new norm of gender neutral monogamous fidelity. It’s a free country, you can do that. But don’t expect me or anyone else who takes their vows seriously to Scripture according to the Lutheran confession stick with you in and as church. And don’t expect me to concede to you for a moment your claim either to Scripture or to confession.
As your ‘bottom line’ you raise up the current state of pastoral hypocrisy on divorce and heterosexual couples living together. Yes, I agree, it is hypocrisy, thank you for saying so. Yes, it is a practical denial of the authority of Scripture, thank you for as much as saying so. In fact, I would far rather be fighting about this predominant, heterosexual betrayal of the authority of Scripture than about the vulnerable gays and lesbians in our midst. For just such reasons, I myself made the effort to justify something like Recommendation 1 as an alternative to the ideas in Recommendations 2, 3, & 4. I originated, so far as I know, the distinction ‘recognition, not blessing.’ But the Task Force turned what I proposed as an alternative to 2, 3 & 4 into a step towards 2, 3 4. Under the circumstance now, I cannot even support Recommendation 1.
A final note: I do not agree evidently with the idea of repentance you are using, when you argue that we regard as members in good standing any that we do not summon to repentance. So if de facto pastors don’t challenge members to change of life, they are members in good standing. I find this idea of repentance remarkable. In any event, the current state of pastoral practice in the ELCA is hardly anything I would want to stake a theological argument on. About the only thing over which I have ever heard an ELCA pastor urge repentance is being a Republican. In any case, the Reformers regarded true contrition sufficient in this life, acknowledging that full repair and change of life is beyond the scope of life between the already of justification and the not yet of resurrection glory. In such a spirit, same-sex couples contrite in the recognition that their desire is disordered, if not reparable in this life, might be recognized in the fellowship of forgiven sinners, just like the divorced are, just like those in common law marriages and many others who fall short of the norm. But instead, if you succeed and all four Recommendations are adopted this summer, we will be a church ever farther from the norm of the Scriptures and the corresponding true repentance.

Woe to those who say, Peace, peace, when there is no peace. In true peace, Paul.

Continued attempt at dialogue

Posted by Ralph W. Klein at May 05, 2009 21:02
Dear Paul.

Two laments.

1. My attempt at dialogue is construed by you as debate. I am not interested in debate. I am deeply interested in dialogue.

2. I did not accuse contemporary pastors of hypocrisy or denying the authority of Scripture. These are only your interpretation of my remarks.

In God's peace.

Three Questions to Two Laments

Posted by Paul Hinlicky at May 05, 2009 23:26
Dear Ralph,

Lamentable, indeed. In general I find the situation the Task Force has put us in with its phony 'compromise,' and the recklessness with which you and the signatories have endorsed it, lamentable. There is a lot of lamenting going around on every side, and everyone's pain is equal.

Three questions to your two laments:

1. You and the signatories purport to be teaching theologians, and have made a proposal that is admittedly divisive. My question then is this: How can you responsibly claim authority to teach this if you will not submit your claims to rational scrutiny on the basis of the ELCA's normative commitments (Constitution Chapters 2 and 3) and so defend your claims in free debate? Is not any legimate claim to authority but authoritanism to exempt oneself from critique.

2. You are right to point out that hypocrisy is my word, not yours. No subtrefuge intended. Can you tell me then how it is not hypocrisy when pastors ignore heterosexual deviations from the teaching of Jesus on marriage, especially divorce, but draw the line against same-sex unions? What more accurate term would apply? This is the inconsistency you described in your bottom line, right?

3. I don't know what you might mean by "dialogue." I have an idea about it from the ecumenical dialogues, where it is understood as a process of understanding the underlying and legitimate concern of the other, and trying in that light to reformulate one's position to accomodate that legitimate concern. If that is what you mean, fine, I am deeply interested in theological dialogue too. But I am worried in the contemporary climate that dialogue is just a code word for more of the same ELCA manipulation, where putative victims howl every time critical reason skills undermine their conceits and in this way inhibit free discourse. Can you understand and acknowledge my concern here? Can you tell me what you mean by dialogue?

In the peace which passes understanding, which is all that we have right now. Paul

Seminex AELC Legacy

Posted by Harvey Mozolak at May 08, 2009 13:27
I did not go to Seminex, they formed after I left the Springfield Seminary, I did join the AELC... because there was Preus legacy that I feared, fled and fought against that had nothing to do with what happened in St. Louis but what one could see had happened and was happening at Springfield even before the Denver election. Jack was elected and went after John T., as I put in a letter to Preus, before the St. Louis Seminary ship left the harbor with its new captain. There is enough blame for all who participate in schism, both those who pen dotted lines on the page and the sissors that cuts.
I do think the AELC had hopes too large for the realities and made space for things no one wanted to store. Good Newness meant too much to us. Harvey Mozolak

Thanks

Posted by William Weedon at May 16, 2009 10:40
Paul,

Thank you for your fine piece of writing. I haven't read through all the comments, but I will add that I (for one) will gladly concede that Missouri's current sad trajectory was set by the way she chose to deal with the dangers posed by the Seminex way of doing theology. To say the opposite of an error is not yet to say the truth.

P.S. Didn't you used to pastor the little Slovak parish in Garfield? I seem to remember that we had some Lenten services together when I vicared at Holy Trinity in Garfield under Pr. Plvan. Of course, I may be misremembering - it was almost 25 years ago.

Seminex 1975-6 /LSTC 1985-6

Posted by Richard G. Maxson at May 22, 2009 23:10
Having sat at the feet of the many 'teaching theologians' during my period at seminary, I find their argumentation less compelling than what I am hearing from Paul Hinlicky. Theirs seems to be an accomodation to the zeitgeist and dismissive of traditional Lutheran teaching. I didn't realize the 'wax nose' would ever refer to my former teachers...but I was formerly in awe and am no longer.

N.B.

Posted by alumni at June 04, 2009 17:46
Not all the teaching theologians on their current list are of the ELCA, and therefore, not all are entitled to a vote. One example of a non ELCA theologian: Dr. Frederick A. Niedner (Valparaiso University), who is on the LCMS clergy roster and not the ELCA roster.

Dr. Niedner

Posted by Nile Sandeen at July 08, 2009 22:49
I believe Dr. Niedner's signature is appropriate because the letter states that not all are ELCA theologians necessarily but are theologians at schools with ELCA affiliation. This water is a little muddy because Valparaiso is technically Independent Lutheran, and its roots LCMS, but it is very much connected with the ELCA and he teaches many ELCA students. And as time passes, while the University remains unaffiliated (wisely I believe) there certainly has been a great rift forming between it and the LCMS while it has strengthened its relations with the ELCA. So regardless of his entitlement to vote I beleive there is warrant in his signature.
And as a former student of Dr. Niedner who has great respect and learned much from him, I find his signature more impactful than any other one on that list.

Recommendation

Posted by Ben Larson at July 14, 2009 22:54
Any time you present an argument within the body of Christ you should do your best bear proper witness to your brother's and sister's arguments. I was willing to hear your point but the lack of respect with which you speak about your fellow Christians should awaken you to the fear that is clearly taking hold of you. When you said, "This is not believable" to a comment based on trust and acceptance of differences you unjustly labeled your fellow Christians liars, and that is not something you should allow yourself to be unrepentant of.

Yours in Christ, the sum of all things,
Ben Larson

Statement

Posted by Jerry Gossett at July 23, 2009 17:30
I am a member of a small Lutheran church in central Ohio. If the ELCA does adopt the policies endorsed by the signers and the task force, what do you believe the Lutheran church in america will look like afterward? I've been trying to figure out where everybody stands on this, but most are not saying much on the subject. My fear is that adoption of these recommendations will open the door to "picking and choosing" which part of the Bible is to be believed. If even ONE part of the Bible is rejected, the rest may as well be.

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