The Three Lutheranisms
I have some ideas about the peculiar history of Lutheranism which stands behind our knotted reality. Historically, if we begin with period between 1517 and 1580 and call that the Confessional period, there have been three additional Lutheranisms: Orthodoxy, Pietism and Liberalism. Each in its own way can claim the legacy of the first, though the authenticity of each claim is viewed with considerable skepticism by the heirs today of the other two (in my scheme, no one gets to claim the initial “Confessional Period,” for reasons adduced below). All three Lutheranisms evolved in part in reaction to what preceded, and continues in opposition to what follows, but each operates on the common principle that the true-blue Lutheran is obliged to critique theological opponents as veritable deformers of the gospel. This habit of passionate denunciation, what historian James Burkee calls “the Luther syndrome,” is the common thread running through all three. Nothing then so modest as clearing up muddled thinking, defeating ignorance with knowledge, or expanding small-mindedness with generosity of vision can be the work of genuine Lutheran theology! Behind the perceived error of our foes lurks apostasy, for nothing less than the gospel is at stake! Thus the three Lutheranisms de facto, if not de jure, habitually anathematize each other...
I have some ideas about the peculiar history of Lutheranism which stands behind our knotted reality. Historically, if we begin with period between 1517 and 1580 and call that the Confessional period, there have been three additional Lutheranisms: Orthodoxy, Pietism and Liberalism. Each in its own way can claim the legacy of the first, though the authenticity of each claim is viewed with considerable skepticism by the heirs today of the other two (in my scheme, no one gets to claim the initial “Confessional Period,” for reasons adduced below). All three Lutheranisms evolved in part in reaction to what preceded, and continues in opposition to what follows, but each operates on the common principle that the true-blue Lutheran is obliged to critique theological opponents as veritable deformers of the gospel. This habit of passionate denunciation, what historian James Burkee calls “the Luther syndrome,” is the common thread running through all three. Nothing then so modest as clearing up muddled thinking, defeating ignorance with knowledge, or expanding small-mindedness with generosity of vision can be the work of genuine Lutheran theology! Behind the perceived error of our foes lurks apostasy, for nothing less than the gospel is at stake! Thus the three Lutheranisms de facto, if not de jure, habitually anathematize each other.
To paint with a very broad brush: in American Lutheranism, the LCMS has claimed the mantle of Orthodoxy, the old ALC (but also the Muhlenberg tradition of the old ULCA) inherited the legacy of churchly Pietism, and elements of the old LCA (the American tradition of Samuel Schmucker) claimed the liberal Lutheranism of biblical criticism and the social gospel. Today, interestingly, both wings of America’s polarized Lutheranism, the LCMS and the ELCA, have their own conflicted relations with Pietism. In the LCMS it is Orthodoxy at war with American evangelicalism; in the ELCA, it is liberalism at war with the remnants of Scandanavian Pietism. More precise portraits can undoubtedly be drawn. But let me explain my categories more carefully.
The Confessional Period (1517-1580) came to an end with the signing of the Book of Concord, a compromise formula that purchased Lutheran church unity at the cost of persecuting Anabaptists, disowning any relation to Calvinists and pledging eternal opposition to Rome. What is interesting is that recent research is showing how uncertain and fluid this period actually was. Olli-Pekka Vaino has shown that during these five decades there were at least five contending interpretations of the doctrine of justification. Jill Raitt shows how far Melanchthonian Lutheranism traveled from Luther’s doctrine of bound choice in her delicious portrait of the Calvinist Theodore Beza waving a copy of Luther’s De servo arbitrio at Georg Major in a disputation on predestination in the 1570s. Calvin scholars in turn have uncovered the correspondence between Calvin and Melanchthon, reminding how Calvin himself subscribed to Altered Confession of Augsburg in 1540. Were it not for Bullinger in Zurich, the Calvin–Melanchthon relation might well have blossomed into another Protestantism than we have known.
In this whirl of confusion we can, however, see the seeds of all three future Lutheranisms. It is found in the Augsburg Confession’s very definition of justifying faith: “when they believe they are received into mercy on account of Christ.” Orthodoxy would make the Bible doctrine of the propter Christum standard of genuine Lutheranism, namely, that Christ’s death on the cross makes satisfaction for sin. Pietism would seize upon the pro me of living faith, which regenerates, which is not the dead fides historica which even the devils have, even be it all so correct orthodox assent to Christ’s vicarious representation. Liberals in turn would reclaim the mercy of God as the leading motif, saying that it is not God who needs to become merciful, nor is it merely we as individuals who need mercy, but it is the world which needs to be transformed into a Beloved Community and can be, since God is love.
Orthodoxy reigned from 1580 until it declined in the course of the 18th century. It was the official theology of the legally established Lutheran church in the alliance of throne and altar in the various forms of the emerging nation-state. These were, moreover, the awful years of the Wars of Religion, when European Christianity committed a fratricide that amounted to a moral and spiritual suicide. But the theological problem of Orthodoxy was that the issue had shifted from Luther’s rediscovery of the Pauline apocalyptic question, which is God’s prophetic question to His own lost and wayward creation: How will we stand before the judgment seat of God who comes to reclaim the earth for His kingdom? Justification by faith, after all, is an answer to the question of justification, that is, judgment. How will we justify ourselves before God? But in Orthodoxy, Luther’s Pauline question lost its primary power to frame theological debate. Rome had succeeded in making authority as such the leading question. The problem now became: Which is the true, i.e. rightly authorized church? The Lutherans were boxed into the corner of claiming that the inerrant, miraculously dictated Bible was pope, not the bishop of Rome. The Lutheran church, which reads that Bible without interpretation, is therefore the true church. The problem with this argument was that the multiplication of Protestant sects and theologies all claiming to read the inerrant Bible without human addition produced multiple, contradictory theologies. Some few Orthodox Lutherans around Calixtus understood how they had been boxed into a corner and sought a patristic resourcement as a way out, recognizing that the Bible is the Book of the Church which owes its existence to the Gospel as a viva vox in Word and Sacrament. Futilely and stubbornly, most of the Orthodox sought to shore up the inerrant Bible with apologetic arguments that became increasingly unconvincing. Reduced to special pleading before the rise of rationalism and its historical criticism of the Bible, Orthodoxy retreated into the ghettoes in which it remains to this day.
Pietism, which is usually dated to Philip Jacob Spener’s treatise in 1675, Pia Desideria, was for the most part a churchly movement of renewal, not separation. Carter Lindberg has done great service in putting together a collection of studies, The Pietist Theologians, which brings the features of the original movement back to life as a recognizable “second” Lutheranism. For it was here that Luther’s original teaching of the righteousness of faith—that “living, mighty active thing,” regeneration according to the Augsburg Confession (though not the Formula of Concord), Luther’s “divine faith, that gift of the Spirit”—was rediscovered and appropriated anew (not without transformation from Luther’s battle with Anfechtung). How the Orthodox—God’s cops, so to say—feared this outbreak of living faith! They hunted out and punished the prayer circles and Bible studies, ecclesiola in ecclesia! Their fear, of course, was justified. Here in these intimate groups, the contrastive identity machinery of Orthodoxy constantly policing confessional boundaries was challenged by the lived experience of living faith in and among confessional “others.” Here, the attempt to turn Christian dogma into a fixed worldview controlling all aspects of culture was undermined from within, as Pietist became acutely aware of the tension between discipleship and the allures of “the world.” In Pietism, correspondingly, the urgency of mission was rediscovered: both inner-mission as urbanization and industrialization increasingly eroded traditional forms of settled church life, but also mission abroad, riding the wave of European colonialism with new worlds to conquer for Christ, new chances to get Christendom right. Therein, however, lay the weakness of the second Lutheranism. Its turn away from the critical task of Christian theology towards a theology of the heart made it quietistic, largely uncritical towards the colonial project. Its individualism and otherworldliness made in effect a deal with the devil: you can have the public world of politics, economy, science, but we claim the region of interiority.
Liberalism too was an authentic development of Lutheranism, both of the social, this-worldly orientation of Luther’s evangelical ethics (modernized as the “social gospel”) and also in its courageous intellectual honesty that applied critical reason to the study of its own sacred Scriptures. Of course, this later move was forced upon Lutheranism by the breakdown in the plausibility of Orthodoxy’s authoritarian claims about an inerrant and uninterpreted Bible and the force of new studies of Scripture pioneered by rationalists intent on showing the unmistakable humanity of Scripture’s authorship. Both moves were codified in Lutheranism’s most influential philosopher, Immanuel Kant, who gave the marching orders for the liberal Protestant theology of the 19th century. Kant took up Luther’s apparent fideism but gave it a new twist: reason cannot know God, and even if there were a revelation of God, reason could not recognize which revelation is authentic. Thus, Kant declared, “he had destroyed knowledge to make room for faith.” By faith, however, he meant practical reason’s postulate of a heavenly reward for those who live strictly to do their duty and thus become morally worthy of heaven. Christ is the Prototype of the life of moral duty. The task is building the kingdom of God on earth, a kingdom of ends, a pure moral meritocracy.
In this development we can nevertheless recognize a third Lutheranism when we see how Kant and his followers had to discredit their predecessors in Orthodoxy and Pietism for failing to complete the Reformation, as the liberals now claimed to do. We can also see, especially in later figures like Ritschl and Harnack, a retrieval of a Leitmotif of Luther’s theology: divine love, Barmherzigkeit, compassion as the motive in all God’s ways. The polemical strife of Orthodoxy and the otherworldliness of Pietism alike fall short of the main thing, divine love for the world. Wasn’t liberalism right about that? To be sure, they were, as none less than Dietrich Bonhoeffer affirmed in his early work, Sanctorum Communio. But, as the same Bonhoeffer realized, with the loss of scriptural authority, the propter Christum, and the living faith of the regenerate taking worldly shape in new lives of discipleship, liberalism’s correct intuition that the gospel is concerned with reclaiming the world for the Beloved Community was bound to collapse after its critique had been executed. People just moved on to join the Communist, or Socialist, or Democratic Party. Indeed, just like Orthodoxy and Pietism, the third Lutherannism fed like a bird of prey on the corpse it has slain. Increasingly, the bones are picked dry.
The moral of the story: it is time to stop the killing. Maybe it is too late. Maybe my friend and colleague, Bob Benne, is right when he argues that Lutheranism is an exhausted tradition. But my own hunch is that Lutheranism can revitalize when, but only when, we recognize that relative validity of all three of its iterations and, returning to the sources, seek to harmonize their valid concerns in a new post-denominational formation.
Paul R. Hinlicky is the Tise Professor of Lutheran Studies at Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia.
Lutherans Without a Church
It is simply a matter of nothing less than sheer intellectual dishonesty to whitewash over the realities of what actually happened in the 16th century and play this game of "make believe" that Calvin's approach to, for example, the Lord's Supper, was somehow, or is somehow, actually compatible with the Lutheran Reformation.
The grand, and failed, experiement of the Seminex era, of which Hinlicky is an heir, was directly responsible, in several ways, for the disaster that has overtaken the ELCA and all of liberal Lutheranism.
The "exhausted tradition" within present-day Lutheranism is not authentic, robust confessing Lutheranism, but rather the quest to somehow combine this hearty, sturdy Lutheranism of Luther and the Lutheran Confessions, with the mixtum compositum of a whole host of theological errors that derive from the "liberal Lutheranism" which Hinlicky attempts to describe in this article.
Rev McCain's Triumphalism
Breathtaking, dear reader, isn't it? The LCMS is on the cusp of another feedy frenzy, as the John Birch Right demands blood from the newly elected President, and Rev. McCain, in his disgust for liberal Lutheranism, and disdain for Pietism, cannot see that he has just reproduced in living color the quintessential portrait of the polemical theology of old Orthodoxy, with its contrastive identity machinery in full gear. I find it sad indeed that McCain can with such gusto pick the specks out of other's eyes, never noticing as in a mirror the ferver of the Luther-syndrome "denunciation" I described at the beginning of this post...
My Luther once wrote: "This is the people of God, who continually bring to bear the judgment of the cross upon themselves." Note well, not on the other guy, but "upon themselves." As for me, I hold to Orthodoxy's propter Christum, as readers of my books well know know (and as liberal friends have discovered with no little nervousness). But I also hold to the failure of Orthodoxy as described above, and the relative legitimacy of each of the other two Lutheranisms, as described above. And if we gave due respect to each of the three motifs in AC IV, we would be at work putting Humpty back together again.
What we need today is good faith critique, which is premised on not drawing the convenient fiction of strawmen to knock down with a few bromides, but dealing with opposing arguments at their best. I would like to think Rev. McCain might yet be capable of this.
boc1580@gmail.com
this conversation does serve as a nice example
It's interesting to hear talk about "putting Humpty back together" even as Dr Benne helps break it into even more pieces. Does that mean he's not giving "due respect to each of the three motifs in AC IV"? There is no "attempt to harmonize" on even one issue, such as that of same-gendered relationships, by people who until recently lived and worked within the same denomination of Lutheranism.
It's also interesting to hear Seminex described both as a "failed experiment" and responsible for the "downfall" of the ELCA. If it was so influential as to dictate the outcome of the largest Lutheran denomination, "failed" is probably not the right word for it. If you ask a couple of the remaining Seminex profs at LSTC, I think you get a slightly different picture of how much influence they wielded or did not wield, though (see http://www.crossings.org/thursday/2011/thur021711.shtml for example). Still, I hope one day that the seeds planted by Seminex bear lots of fruit both in the LCMS, ELCA, NALC and other Lutheran bodies worldwide.
Finally, it's funny to watch you two try to get your jabs in on each other. Dr Hinlicky, you got some good shots in ("Orthodoxy retreated into the ghettoes" is probably my favorite so far, but "My Luther" was also nice), but I think McCain is currently ahead with his strawman crack, and didn't leave you much room for a good retort. Pretending that you're ignoring him or not addressing him will probably work this time, since he doesn't need to say anything else, but I think most people see right through that. I'm sure someone else can in turn (preferably with a good jab of their own) tell me which commandment I'm violating here, unless this is just one aspect of the acceptable "hating with Christian love". Oooh! That's a jab of my own! Theological mud wrestling, here we come!
Peter's Cynicism
Why can't I conduct a fruitful argument with McCain? Because he speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he praises (disengenously, I suspect) the post on the Thee Lutheranisms for its analysis and on the other willfully refuses to learn anything from it and simply perpetuates the failed dynamics it identified. One can only shake the dust off one's feet, and yes, resort to "jabs" to expose the hypocrisy and limit its influence, so far as one is able. So now you understand why I will henceforth ignore him and you too, if you don't get serious.
Serious? You might just note that I am not my good friend, Bob Benne. Nor have I left the ELCA, I have not joined NALC, I am dissenting in place, and, as you will recall, it was I who worked for a compromise on the divisive issue before the shipwreck of August 2009 took place. Nor have I changed my view on "recognition but not blessing" of Christians who find themselves in same-sex unions to ingratiate myself with "conservatives." In Benne's defense, however, I will say this: the shipwreck of 2009 is ecclesiological, since it left every man, woman and child in the ELCA to make up their own doctrine of human sexuality on the point in contention by the dishonest means of permitting "local" unions and ordinations. It turned the ELCA into a federation of congregations, where folks can ally themselves as they please. Benne is simply acting on this ecclesial collapse according to his own conscience. I don't blame it for it, rather I defend his integrity (even while not fully agreeing with him on the issue in contention). I blame the dishonest perpetuators of the 2009 decision, who are now reaping what they have sown (the financial collapse of Higgins Road, the LCMC now claiming over 700 congregations, the NALC claiming 225 in its first year -- and the beat goes on for years to come).
Yes, Peter, you took your own jab at the end, you paragon of Christian love. I respond just this once to you in the Pauline hope that you can be serious, the hope McCain has disappointed once again.
Speaking Out of Both Sides of His Mouth
But let us consider how "genuous" Hinlicky really is when he says he wants to "recognize" men and women living in a homosexual relationship, while not supporting the ELCA's "shipwreck."
This is nothing other a case of TMPD = theological multiple personality disorder.
Why so serious?
Speaking of which, it is interesting to see that you defend your own jabs and yet react negatively to others', such as McCain's. If he's trying to do the same thing you are, why criticize him for it? There is a need to be right creeping in here from all directions-- yours, his, mine. That need to be right is especially evident in the decision to (try to) ignore viewpoints that disagree with our own. So long as we need to be right, we're not letting Jesus be right, and our sin (not just his, not just yours, not just mine, but we're all cursed as sinners) is why we cannot have a fruitful argument. It's not about how serious or whimsical the tone of the argument is, nor how educated the theologians are, but it's in our lack of trust in Christ. Thank God salvation is a free gift from Jesus to us in the midst of our unbelief!
But if none of us-- you, me, McCain, Benne, need to be right, we can leave all of the jabbing, defending and placing blame behind. We can have good-faith discussions without needing to resort to making accusations about "dishonest perpetrators" or "shipwrecks" because we're no longer threatened. We can celebrate our unity even in the midst of our diversity and disagreement. That unity is most clearly celebrated in the Eucharist, in which we all participate.
Picking the bones
Historical analysis
Your historical method reminds me of Hans Dombois and his "Das Recht der Gnade", vol. I - -III, where he analyses the whole history of the church and canon law since 1000 AD in a like manner as diverging schools dismembering elements which they cannot hold in a balance as they originally were. Hee sees it, however, as a historical process, where one cannot jump out of the wagon. Interesting though is his thesis that the study of canon law is very helpful in detecting the currents and their driving forces. - Am I right in presuming that the study of canon law (Orthodox, RC and Protestant)has few disciples only in America?
Helpful, and possibly encouraging
The diagnosis in this article rings true, but the prognosis/recommendation begins in the final paragraph. Achieving a harmony of these Lutheran traditions within one's own life story is one thing, what would this look like on a larger scale?
Incompatible Theology
Liberal Lutheranism, let's take but one example, rejects the assertions of the ecumenical creeds, and casts doubt and uncertainty on ever major point of Christian doctrine. Orthodox Lutheranism does not.
How do these two "theologies" coexist?
Just Stop
Why do you continuously fight with those here on the forum? Clearly you don't agree with them and really never have, why not just steer clear at this point? Your previous reactions to these postings and others on the Lutheran Forum board continuously paints the LCMS in a poor light, you're not charitable in the least. Also, you do represent CPH as well and you're not doing a good job of it. I thought you were swearing off commenting on such things, didn't you write a blog post about the said issue?
In Christ,
Pastor Scott Geminn+
Just stop
Dynamic, charitable reading of the Lutheran movement helps
I also think that a focus on coexistence misses the point of Hinlicky's article above.
The charitable readings of each of these three Lutheranisms focus on what good each offers. Rather than focusing on some sort of dialogue between the static entities of Liberalism, Orthodoxy, and Pietism, the article above suggests a dynamic reading of the history and a focus on how each of these movements picks up the slack of the others.
So, in the case of "Liberal Lutheranism," it is good to apply critical thinking to the truths we confess as Lutherans--the same truths that "Orthodox Lutheranism" does well to defend and communicate to new generations. That's about as much as I can answer given your parameters.
BOC1580@gmail.com
How do you understand the theology and practice of the ELCA as being compatible with the historic Christian faith and practice of the church universal? And how do you understand the liberal theology that undergirds the ELCA at this point in time being compatible with historic, orthodox Lutheranism?
And, as you answer those questions, perhaps you can share what your definition is of orthodox Lutheranism and liberal Lutheranism.
Thanks,
PTM
define terms and loaded phrases
Perhaps you ought to answer your own question. Unless terms and phrases are clearly identified in terms of how they are being defined and used, both parties will talk over the other.
Talk about the pervasive nature of the 8th commandment in operation!
Jacobean Lutheranism
satis est
An unqualified observation
(I will preface this in saying that I am an 'external observer' of this debate, being in another country, with a different set of issues, but that I find the debate interesting on multiple levels)
Each group claims that it is 'Lutheran', despite the obvious protestations of the others. One claims Lutheran is orthodox belief and adherence to the Book of Concord, another claims that Lutheran is adherence to the 'spirit' of what Luther was doing. Another claims something else entirely and yet retains the name. (this is an example, please don't fit the groups into my categories!)
The argument reminds me also of the term 'Christian' and 'Christianity'. Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, 7th day adventists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Calvary Chapels, revivalists, faith healers and home church movements all claim the same thing. Some you could say rightly so if you looked at their doctrines, others you could claim not so much, and some you would instantly call heretical. And yet, they all persist on calling themselves Christian.
I am reminded of the story of Bobby Fischer (to go really off track). He thought for a long time he was a Christian, as he followed religiously the 'Worldwide Church of God' (Herbert W Armstrong). A quick peek at some of their beliefs and practices would have me at least saying 'not so much' in relation to Christianity (and quickly descending from there), but many were lead astray from the truth, and burnt for life because of it (Bobby being one, who became anti Christian and anti-Semitic). So here the term 'Christian' in language was the issue - they believed in their form of Christianity, whilst others disagreed.
Back to this debate here then! I think it is clear there are issues. I think even looking historically at the arguments that Luther was involved with regarding union with other groups show that we need to stand firm to our principles, and make sure our beliefs and systems are known and public. Hence the generic name for us all, 'Protestants'.
However I think we need to engage in constructive argument - not 'heat' argument, but 'light' argument. We need to investigate the truths of the Bible and Jesus and see what is valuable (gold), and what is not (straw). We also need to draw a distinction between those who are obviously so far off track that most would not even agree they are Christian (eg, Mormonism), and those who could well have it right.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying we 'stand down' and all go for a love fest - that is not truth seeking or going to solve anything - if anything it will lead us all astray, choosing the worst of every lot. But we need to ensure that we are all prayerfully seeking the truth, before Christ. Because despite our good intentions, every one of us is in sin in some way, and every group probably has something not entirely right about it (as hard as that is to admit)
I think they key to the article is at the end, that we 'return to the sources'. We need to find, agree on and then define those sources, and move on from there, lest in our heated argument we turn people completely away.
Drewe
boc1580@gmail.com
You can't have it both ways, folks. You can't embrace the spirit of the age on these issues and then pine after "unity." So, when Hinlicky talks about accepting homosexual couples, and then talks out the other side of his mouth about the ills that afflict the ELCA, we see here the ultimate self-deception.
"Spirit of the Age?"
So, to attempt to paint Hinlicky's theological reasoning as simple capitulation to "the spirit of the age" rather than the fulfillment of the theologian's vocation - namely, to bring the resources of the Christian tradition to bear upon the issues most germane to the contemporary church and then to submit one's conclusions to the judgment of that same church - reveals, I think, a regrettable lack of willingness to take his project on its own terms (or perhaps just an equally regrettable unwillingness to read what he has actually written).
boc1580@gmail.com
You apparently are a Paul Hinlicky "fan boy"... I am not impressed.
I have not interest in taking Hinlicky's "project" seriously...he represents a disastrous turn of events in the Lutheran tradition.
"Fanboy?" That's a new one
Of course, by that definition then I am also guilty of encouraging my students to be "fanboys" of Augustine, Origen, Paul Ricouer, Aquinas, and Annie Dillard. Pity for them...
so he's forgiven for his participation in Seminex?
I find it also interesting that everyone's idea of unity tends to be 'we can have unity if you agree with me'. No denomination is "serious" about unity so long as it permits the ordination of females. But it goes the other way, too-- no denomination "serious" about unity can afford to not allow others ordain females. For all that everyone seems dissatisfied with the ELCA sexuality statement because it doesn't affirm them as right, it does affirm unity, and leaves room for congregations with different interpretations of one particular to serve the same risen Lord.
Someone has been kind enough to put the Book of Concord online....perhaps you can go to that website ( http://www.bookofconcord.org ) and see what light AC7 and 8 and the Apology of the same shed on this issue, especially in regards to "human traditions", like Apology 7:30-34.
Lutheranism
After reading all of the comments above, I again am gasping for air. No one takes you seriously because you take yourselves so seriously.
I attend ELCA events on a regular basis. Being in the assembly of Lutherans charges my batteries. Being around angry, hateful folks like you make me want to give myself an enema.
Do you not understand this? Have you never been to a worship and been uplifted? You remind me of tourists in Venice who kvetch about the little amount of garbage floating in the water. Your eyes are so fixed on trivia that you fail to see the magnificent beauty all around you.
Lighten up. No one is listening to you. Even if the NALC had a shred of credibility, no one would want to be around you because you are so inward focused.
Hinlicky says he wants to remain in the ELCA. Its not altruism that keeps him there. Its because no one else would have his daughter.
Cheer up - the ELCA is thriving join us.
Jim Shields
Lutheranism
After reading all of the comments above, I again am gasping for air. No one takes you seriously because you take yourselves so seriously.
I attend ELCA events on a regular basis. Being in the assembly of Lutherans charges my batteries. Being around angry, hateful folks like you make me want to give myself an enema.
Do you not understand this? Have you never been to a worship and been uplifted? You remind me of tourists in Venice who kvetch about the little amount of garbage floating in the water. Your eyes are so fixed on trivia that you fail to see the magnificent beauty all around you.
Lighten up. No one is listening to you. Even if the NALC had a shred of credibility, no one would want to be around you because you are so inward focused.
Hinlicky says he wants to remain in the ELCA. Its not altruism that keeps him there. Its because no one else would have his daughter.
Cheer up - the ELCA is thriving join us.
Jim Shields
En garde!
Thriving!? 40% of our local Lutherans have left the ELCA for either the LCMC or NALC.
Supercilious
I understand confidence and gravitas. You misunderstand my gravitas - and believe me I have a lot of gravitas. If you saw me you would get the double meaning - there's a French term for this but y'all speak only Latin, so I'll stick with English.
I bother to post because y'all won't go away. I used to call your movement a cancer, but my wife corrected me because cancer is a serious matter. So now I call your movement a minor irritant, like a boil on the rectum, to borrow an illustration from brother Paul,(the letter writer) not Hinlicky.
Hinlicky's arguments are hardly thought provoking. You must have never heard him speak. He is one angry dude.
You need to get out more. Less than 2% of Lutherans have bolted. Where do you live that 40% of local Lutherans have left the ELCA? Get some fresh air for crying out loud.
Grace and peace
Jim
Colorado Springs
You don't seem to understand math or is it logic!? Over 200 churches have now affiliated with the NALC just in the last year (which is 2% on its own) and The LCMC has 700+ which combined amounts to around 9% of the ELCA's population of 10,000 congregations. This trend is not abating.
I have heard Hinlicky twice now at conferences - and still see gravitas favors Hinlicky and evades Shields. Your remarks are the angry sort of puerile retort. Am at a loss as to why you bother.
I am fluent in Spanish and would probably understand your French mon ami.
Gravitas
I understand math. I wanted to know where 40% of churches have left the ELCA. Four out of 10 in Colorado Springs is 40% but you will have to admit that CS has a reputation for fundie activity.
Here is a more cogent explanation. I live in Houston. Most of the churches leaving in our synod are dead or dying rural churches who have questionable pastors. My wife comes from central Texas and her cousin is a member of one of those rural churches. He will flat out tell you that small rural churches do not attract the best pastors and it is these dim pastors who are behind the exodus.
The trend is abating. Our upcoming synod assembly has no mention of the homophobic cause in the agenda. No nasty resolutions or threatened actions. The GLBT cocktail party will be well attended as usual.
I spent much of my career explaining arcane financial issues to engineers. It was important that I use clear English to explain complicated matters.
The people here say that someone is full of gravitus because they use unclear language peppered with Latin or German to further obfuscate.
Maintaining that you understand something which is not understandable illogical. QED
Why do I bother? Its fun
Grace and peace
Jim
Tx La Gulf Coast Synod
Bishop Rinehart included a slide in his presentation which listed the 5 congregations that have left for NALC.
Total giving of all 5....$4,600.
Some even asked that if they don't like NALC can they return to the ELCA. The bishop said "of course" but only after a serious "come to jesus meeting" to lay out the ground rules.
The assembly was exciting and uplifting. Its great to be around church people. How do you people stand yourselves??
Lutheranism in the German EKD
labouring in Germany and reading your metaphor of the birds: Would you argue about the German EKD, that it comprises all three birds picking the corps in peaceful coexistence? Or could I find comfort in the halfway "versöhnte Verschiedenheit", which is championed by the Strasburg Institute?